SE Texas - small bone

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Found this today thanks to a little rain exposure on a river gravel bank. It's completely mineralized....rock solid. I hadn't seen this before...at least I've never found one. I can't tell what it is tho. I thought perhaps a medial phalanx...but it doesn't seem right. It has some oddness to it like perhaps a deformity...small bump on one side? Or it's the right shape and just highly eroded and smoothed out. Can anyone tell me what it is and perhaps what it belonged to? Pleistocene deposit area with most mammal type possibilities.  Included a photo with measurements...then hand held it to get angles and some lighting. In my work truck and its raining...kinda dark.  

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

It's also interesting that it appears to have an impact fracture....a center contact point and these lines that look like they go  outward. 

[ClearLake]

I'm not positive, but I think it is a tarsal bone from a horse.  Unfortunately, I can't find the bag with the one for my horse to directly compare, but it looks about right.  Tarsal bones are essentially the ankle bones, except in a horse they are a third of the way up the leg (the hock) since horses sort of stand on their toe.  I believe it is the fourth tarsal which sits between the base of the calcaneum and the top of the metatarsal (or cannon) bone.  Sooner or later, I'll remember where I put my "spare parts" bag and then I can better compare.  Pictures 2, 3 and 4 show the articulation facets on the bottom I believe.

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Holy Moly look at all those bones in there! Man I saw an image earlier and considered a radial carpal bone from something i forget...but wasn't sure. Your thoughts on it being a 4th carpal is still in the same area so it's possible. It was found in the same spot as a bison hoof core I had found that has the same complete mineralization. But I do find a bunch of horse stuff too. I'm still trying find single photos of each of these bones for comparison. Might have to search the 3d images available online.

[Brandy Cole]

I agree that it's a carpal.  Possibly camelid?  Harry Pristis has an excellent photograph of several carpal bones in his example in this thread.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/34914-carpal-bone-help/

[Brandy Cole]

 

 

@Harry Pristis is very knowledgeable about these tarsals and carpals.  He may have some insight.

 

I found a cool small bone like this once, and he got me started in the right direction.

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Thank you Brandy.  It always amazes me when I Google search images...his specimens display immediately.  He definitely has a wealth of knowledge and a great catalog with incredible photos. I look forward to his thoughts. 

[Harry Pristis]

I'll search my collection tomorrow, but my immediate reaction was "scaphoid."

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Here is a comparison of a scaphoid from a camel by Harry Pristis with my specimen and an image I found online for a horse scaphoid. The top of mine has a similar articular facet as the camel but maybe I just can't tell from the Equus example. There is a single curve underneath it which would rest on the trapezoid, correct? Also, is the scaphoid the same as a radial carpal?

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by johnnyvaldez7.jv

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Would camel and horse be the only options?

[Brandy Cole]

I believe scaphoid is the same as radial carpal.  

[Harry Pristis]

5 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

I believe scaphoid is the same as radial carpal.  

My impression is that "radial carpal," "intemediate carpal," "second carpal," and so on, are veterinary terms most useful for articulated bones and their problems. 

Paleontologists tend to deal with disarticulated bones and their identification.  "Scaphoid" is the most meaningful term for our purposes here.

Here are some synonymous terms:

 

[Brandy Cole]

I would say "camelid" instead of camel because there were several types in Texas during the mio-Pleistocene time frame.  Hemiauchenia and paleolama were smaller (llama sized) and camelops was really large.

 

Several fairly large mammals that were pretty common here in South Texas have carpal/tarsal bones.   Giant sloth, holmesina, and glyptodont all have hand bones, but good examples of those for comparison can be very hard to find.  

Edited February 10, 2023 by Brandy Cole
For clarity

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

So "camelid" could include any of those 3? Good to know. Thank you.  And I agree that these ankle/wrist/hand bones are VERY hard to identify. I see a ton of photos with them all togther and not as many isolated...even 3D views so I'm really struggling with this one. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by johnnyvaldez7.jv
Spelling

[Balance]

I call what’s happened here, “The Loop”. You see all southeastern regional fossil searches will eventually end up on google with one of Harry’s photos. That will in turn lead you to TFF.  Which will in turn lead you back into google with new questions and eventually you’ll land on Harry’s photo and it starts all over again. 😂 

 

Found this thread doing research tonight. 

 

. Help is on the way! I too find the lack of individually photographed examples frustrating…

 

Jp

 

 

 

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Whats amazing is as powerful as Google is... all fossil images lead to Harry. His images are in every one of my searches once I know what to search for. He should write a reference book... or perhaps you could do it with credits for images.  You're a great writer as well.

Y'all in Florida put in way more work than we do here in Texas where all we have to do is walk down to a gravel bar or paddle to a few of them and discover things up on the surface... no shoveling needed. You guys are diving with gear all Navy SEAL - like and surrounded by gators and pythons. So I applaud all the cool stuff y'all Florida folks find cause I know it took effort.  You're doing awesome and I can't wait til I see you come up with my deam... a sabercat canine.

[Balance]

With the flood we had last year anything is possible again. Just mixed up the “how” in the hunting technique but things are starting to fall in place.  - No pythons up here yet. They are close. About 50 miles south. We still have birds on the river and in your ears. They say when the birds go silent the snakes have moved in. 
 

Saber-cat is on my list too. 😊 

 

We can’t take this information with us. So we either have to pass it on in the apprentice/master method or in documentation left behind for the next interested person. I agree with Harry putting a book together but it’s a massive undertaking. Harry’s photos appearing first page and their online coverage show that they are “clicked” on more than the university website images. I think that’s because they are accessible to people like me. Not accessible as in I can find them but in that I can look at them and immediately see what he is trying to represent. Instead of needing an hour to look up words and put the information back together again from some master thesis. Different levels of need. 
 

That need difference could be why these bones aren’t individually studied (at least publicly) because in modern farrier/veterinary usage I refer to the knee or hock (yes one is completely incorrectly named) in total or as a unit. 
 

“This horse appears to be sore in its hocks” would be my statement to a vet. In 23 years of horses I’ve never once heard a vet break that down further. As in to say, “I think it’s actually the articulation between the navicular and ectocuniform”. Never going to happen. If the vet is doing this breakdown themselves and keeping it in their head I would understand, but I don’t think MOST vets have this level of anatomy in use. Perhaps they know it from school but it’s like learning Latin. That’s something you do for yourself for learning how to understand anatomy not because you expect to use it publicly. 
 

Have a great week!  Stay warm!

 

Jp