Fossil birds from Liaoning, China

[Crazyhen]

This pair of fossil birds is from Liaoning, China.  Any idea what species is that?

[Doctor Mud]

Can we see some close ups please?

 

I wouldn’t pass any judgment until we see close ups, but the positioning seems a bit too perfect.

 

 

[Crazyhen]

30 minutes ago, Doctor Mud said:

Can we see some close ups please?

 

I wouldn’t pass any judgment until we see close ups, but the positioning seems a bit too perfect.

 

 

Some close-ups

[Doctor Mud]

I’m interested first in if these birds are all real, partially real and whether they are actually associated. There is a bit of trickery going on for many fossils from this site.

 

Its still too hard to tell 100% from the new images, but I suspect (cannot guarantee from available images) that the torsos and some of the skulls and limbs are real, with some “supplementary” details otherwise.

Lower legs on one on the left (Tarsometarsus down), wing past radius and ulna on left hand one. beaks on the skulls of both? They look different.
 

The torsos look good. It would be interesting to see  a clear close up this area. Two associated birds would result in a bit of overlap, but this area looks different in terms of preservation too.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Doctor Mud

[Doctor Mud]

Calling @Auspex

[RJB]

  First of all, I'm no expert in any sense of the word so take most of what i say with a grain of salt.  I do see differences in color in differing areas but to me, it all looks purty good.  My only real question would be, "why such a horrible/terrible patch job, if such good fakery".  Good to me that is.  Here it is another way.  If there is some fakery work going on here, why such a lousy patch job?   Anyways, looks like a really good pairing of birds if you ask me.   Best of luck.

 

RB 

[Troodon]

Unfortunately the new images are of poor quality to see much detail.  Can you get

higher Q ones.

What puzzles me is are we looking at two birds on the right

Hard to see but are the green marked two clavicles,  red, lots of leg bones, which look similar but it may be the angle of the photo

 

 

[Doctor Mud]

32 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Unfortunately the new images are of poor quality

I agree. Some possible red flags, but we really need better quality images to see what’s going on here.  
 

1 hour ago, RJB said:

Anyways, looks like a really good pairing of birds if you ask me.

Have you seen two birds in one stone before? It’s possible, I’ve just never seen a legit specimen with two birds nicely preserved side by side like this. That by itself doesn’t suggest any funny business, but lends itself to higher scrutiny. 
 

Good point on that patch job though. If parts are added it is quite sophisticated, and that looks like a hunk of chewing gum someone stuck on there after they finished chewing it 

[Auspex]

To me, parts of this specimen look 'too perfect'; I suspect that at least some (most?) have been sculpted.

[ParkerPaleo]

4 hours ago, Doctor Mud said:

I agree. Some possible red flags, but we really need better quality images to see what’s going on here.  
 

Have you seen two birds in one stone before? It’s possible, I’ve just never seen a legit specimen with two birds nicely preserved side by side like this. That by itself doesn’t suggest any funny business, but lends itself to higher scrutiny. 
 

Good point on that patch job though. If parts are added it is quite sophisticated, and that looks like a hunk of chewing gum someone stuck on there after they finished chewing it 

I have prepared a slab with multiple birds in it from Liaoning.  It is quite possible it is authentic.  We were told they excavated them in the hundreds to thousands, the lake deposit they are found in has a high density of fossils.

[Pliosaur]

@Crazyhen Looks to me to be authentic, judging from the pictures it seems to be a specimen of Cathayornis sp. which is a genus of enantiornithean birds from the Jiufotang Formation of Liaoning, People's Republic of China. It is known definitively from only one species, Cathayornis yandica, one of the first Enantiornithes found in China.

[Pliosaur]

If you want more information about this species, I’ve attached a research article below detailing: A New Species of Cathayornis from the Lower Cretaceous of Inner Mongolia, China and Its Stratigraphic Significance

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230076856_A_New_Species_of_Cathayornis_from_the_Lower_Cretaceous_of_Inner_Mongolia_China_and_Its_Stratigraphic_Significance

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crazyhen]

I managed to get hold of some higher resolution photos.  See if it helps.

 

 

 

 

[piranha]

20 minutes ago, Pliosaur said:

...judging from the pictures it seems to be a specimen of Cathayornis sp.

 

Please enlighten me as I'm curious to know what diagnostic features point to Cathayornis?

[Pliosaur]

@piranha

 

Judging from where the specimen was found and that in Cathayornis sp. one of the diagnostic features is the reverse articular arrangement between the scapula and the coracoid from the typical birds of today. The fusion of the foot bones in Cathayornis is also opposite from modern birds. 
 

Although it could also very well be Yanornis sp which has been described from Liaoning, China 

 

This article goes in depth on the diagnostic features of a holotype specimen and you can make the comparisons yourself 

https://web.archive.org/web/20150208204115id_/http://www.ivpp.ac.cn/qt/papers/201206/P020120604520649848519.pdf
 

Hope this helps 

[JohnJ]

4 minutes ago, Pliosaur said:

the reverse articular arrangement between the scapula and the coracoid

 

If you could illustrate where you see this in the topic specimen, it would be helpful to many members.  

[Pliosaur]

I’ve circled what I’m seeing for the coracoid on this specimen although this is just my opinion 

[JohnJ]

2 minutes ago, Pliosaur said:

I’ve circled what I’m seeing for the coracoid on this specimen although this is just my opinion 

Is this the reverse arrangement you judged to be diagnostic?  

[Doctor Mud]

I’ve no doubt that there are 2 real bird fossils there, but there are still some red flags for me as to whether they are associated or 100% real. 
 

Some signs of authenticity I’ve looked for are the presence of freshwater bivalves in the matrix (blue arrows) and the halo of feathers (red arrows). Also the texture and color of the bone.
 

Having prepped myself I know that preservation can change within a layer quite quickly and can explain the color differences in some cases.
 

 

But there are really sharp transitions here. Feather halo on one side of the crack, none on the other. Rapid change in color onto the same area. Maybe it could be areas that were already exposed to the elements leading to bleaching if the bone. 
 

But it sounds like @ParkerPaleo has experience working on this material so if he says it’s legit ….. 

[Doctor Mud]

To add - this probably highlights why it’s a good idea to have a record of prep that was done on important specimens like this. Photo before prep, maybe some stages during prep. Any records of consolidants or adhesives, any areas reconstructed or repaired. Takes out the guess work completely. 
 

For example if we saw it pre prep and saw the bleached or lighter areas were already exposed, we would be happier with the color changes. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Doctor Mud

[RJB]

  I'm not a 'bird' guy, but this is a fascinating thread! 

 

RB

 

[Doctor Mud]

13 hours ago, Pliosaur said:

I’ve circled what I’m seeing for the coracoid on this specimen although this is just my opinion 

 

 

 

Is that not a humerus? The distal end articulates with what looks like a radius and ulna and is a mirror image of the other side 

 

Heres Cathayornis skeleton from the Beijing museum of natural history

 

 

Brightened cropped and rotated to highlight wing set up. I think we are looking from the back and circled I think is the scapula, but I’m not sure. If it was the coracoid it should articulate with the sternum

 

[Doctor Mud]

This could be useful.

From: Min Wang & Di Liu (2015): Taxonomical reappraisal of Cathayornithidae (Aves: Enantiornithes), Journal of Systematic Palaeontology, DOI: 10.1080/14772019.2014.994087

 

 

I’ll see if there is an image of the humerus too. 
 

Edit: This paper looks really useful, with detailed character analysis of all skeletal elements for these birds. It mentions every diagnostic feature and how they compare. 
 

I don’t know the status of this specimen, if you have it in hand, but I would think the lead author on this paper would be in the best position to ID it. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Doctor Mud

[ParkerPaleo]

I did not go over the pictures in fine detail.  I'm just saying that having multiple specimen close to each other is not a character to use to determine legitimacy.  Ideally, as other have mentioned, you would like to see the prep process or pictures of it.  I would also see if you can get pictures under UV/other wavelengths of light.  Glues, consolidants, epoxies, etc. all show up very distinctly.  The 'backside' of the slab may also show patchwork or adding multiple slabs together or other tricks that are often done.  

 

This all being said, I don't see any major flags with this piece.  I would not be worried if there was a few small patches of glue or filler in a specimen as it usually just indicated there was a missing piece in the 'raw' specimen/matrix.  To me, it appears the slab was collected in multiple pieces and joined back together with varying degrees of 'tightness' (not even sure that's the right word).  the gaps between the joined slabs are not all uniform.  Similar to how a car hood's gaps looks in a vehicle that's been repaired after a wreck.

[Doctor Mud]

1 hour ago, ParkerPaleo said:

The 'backside' of the slab may also show patchwork or adding multiple slabs together or other tricks that are often done. 

Good call. I hadn’t thought of that one. The focus would be on making the top look good