My collection update

[JorisVV]

New to the collection, added last week. 

Nest of 5 oviraptor sp. (Elongatoolithid?) from the Nanxiong Fm in China. 

[JorisVV]

Also added this huge Carcharodontosaurus indet. tooth from the KemKem Beds, Morocco. Apical side measures 133MM. 

[Meatasaurus93]

Nice additions to your collection. That Carch tooth is massive!

[JorisVV]

By far the rarest tooth I have had! A Plioplatecarpus Marshi pterygoid tooth from the Sibbergroeve, Valkenburg (Maastricht/Limburg), Netherlands.

 

Perfect crown. And extremely hard to come by

[JohnJ]

3 hours ago, JorisVV said:

A Plioplatecarpus Marshi pterygoid tooth from the Sibbergroeve, Valkenburg (Maastricht/Limburg), Netherlands.

 

I just wonder how such an identification could be made short of a direct association with diagnostic bones...?

 

@Praefectus

@pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

[Praefectus]

6 hours ago, JohnJ said:

I just wonder how such an identification could be made short of a direct association with diagnostic bones...?

 

@Praefectus

@pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

 

Joris sent me pictures of this tooth a couple days ago. He said someone at the Maastricht history museum identified it as Plioplatecarpus marshi for him.

 

 

The tooth does have approximately correct morphology for P. marshi. It has strong posterior curvature and striated enamel. Marginal teeth of Plioplatecarpus are tall, thin, and possess strong medial curvature in addition to posterior curvature. I'm not sure if this morphology carries over the the pterygoid dentition. Generally, pterygoid teeth are shorter and less medially curved so P. marshi is a possibility. 

 

Alternatively, this might be a tooth of Halisaurus (=Phosphorosaurus) ortliebi. Abrupt posterior curvature is seen in both Halisaurine and Plioplatecarpine mosasaurs and striated enamel is seen in all Plioplatecarpines and some Halisaurines (e.g., absent in Halisaurus arambourgi but present in Eonatator sternbergii). Given how stout the tooth is in lateral view, I tentatively think Halisaurine might be a better fit. I do not know if the sole Halisaurine species from the Maastricht type area + surrounding areas (H. ortliebi) bears striated enamel, though. 

 

How did you get the identification of the tooth's placement in pterygoid? Does it lack carinae (cutting edges)? This detail could be informative for identification. Plioplatecarpines have an unserrated carina on their pterygoid teeth while the few Halisaurine pterygoids that have been recovered bear tooth crowns without carinae. 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

On 4/2/2023 at 10:31 PM, JohnJ said:

I just wonder how such an identification could be made short of a direct association with diagnostic bones...?

 

@Praefectus

@pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

 

I think another way to approach the identification, and the one that was probably applied in this case, is to look at the genera and species of mosasaur known from the Dutch Maastrichtian. This would be:

• Mosasaurus hoffmannii
• Mosasaurus lemonnieri
• Prognathodon saturator
• Prognathodon sectorius
• Prognathodon sp.
• Plioplatecarpus marshi
• Platecarpus sp.
• Carinodens belgicus

Of these, Plioplatecarpus marshi is the closest match. As far as I'm aware, neither Hainosaurus bernardi and Phosphorosaurus ortliebi have been described from the Netherlands. So either this would be the first record of a halisaurine in the country (which would totally be possible, as I've got what looks to be a tylosaurine tooth from Romontbos in my collection) or, more likely seeing as the striations, it's indeed Plioplatecarpus marshi. It doesn't look like there are any carinae, so I'd say palatal tooth is quite reasonable.

[Praefectus]

2 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

As far as I'm aware, neither Hainosaurus bernardi and Phosphorosaurus ortliebi have been described from the Netherlands.

They are found right next door in Belgium. So close, that some mosa researchers are in the (bad) habit of treating the Maastrichtian of Belgium and the Netherlands as the same. 

 

My reluctance with calling this tooth pterygoid is that even amongst species that have shorter, stubbier teeth, the pterygoid crowns still have really noticeable posterior curvature. But looking at the size of the tooth, maybe curvature (posterior or medial) is not really noticeable. Plioplatecarpus marshi is the second most common mosasaur in the Maastricht type area. It could fit. I wish there was a photo reference for what P. marshi pterygoid teeth look like. 

[JohnJ]

15 minutes ago, Praefectus said:

It could fit. I wish there was a photo reference for what P. marshi pterygoid teeth look like. 

 

19 minutes ago, Praefectus said:

They are found right next door in Belgium. So close, that some mosa researchers are in the (bad) habit of treating the Maastrichtian of Belgium and the Netherlands as the same. 

3 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

I think another way to approach the identification, and the one that was probably applied in this case, is to look at the genera and species of mosasaur known from the Dutch Maastrichtian.

 

All the 'qualifiers' to a species identification mentioned are the reasons for my skepticism.  Short of a hand held comparison to pterygoid teeth of Platecarpus marshi or direct association of identified skeletal elements, it seems presumptuous to give a species name to an isolated tooth.  Doing so assumes distinguishing characteristics and that similarly 'toothed' mosasaurs will not be found in that region...but, maybe I presume too much.  

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

6 hours ago, JohnJ said:

All the 'qualifiers' to a species identification mentioned are the reasons for my skepticism.  Short of a hand held comparison to pterygoid teeth of Platecarpus marshi or direct association of identified skeletal elements, it seems presumptuous to give a species name to an isolated tooth.  Doing so assumes distinguishing characteristics and that similarly 'toothed' mosasaurs will not be found in that region...but, maybe I presume too much.  

 

I wholeheartedly agree. Most teeth from the Dutch chalk are easily attributable, however, when one considers the species-list as, with limited choice, matches are easy enough to make. As Trevor pointed out, P. marshi truly is the most commonly known species from the Dutch Maastrichtian. But that may also be a bias based on exactly the aforementioned approach...

 

7 hours ago, Praefectus said:

My reluctance with calling this tooth pterygoid is that even amongst species that have shorter, stubbier teeth, the pterygoid crowns still have really noticeable posterior curvature.

 

I've gone through some of my reference material and now agree that the curvature is not enough to warrant attribution to the pterygoid. Those would indeed be recurved more strongly.

 

Below are a P. marshi (first/ left) and Platecarpus sp. (second/ right l tooth from the Natural History Museum of Maastricht for comparison of normal curvature in these teeth.

 

 

7 hours ago, Praefectus said:

They are found right next door in Belgium. So close, that some mosa researchers are in the (bad) habit of treating the Maastrichtian of Belgium and the Netherlands as the same.

 

That's a valid point. However, it's good to keep in mind that Hainosaurus bernardi and Phosphorosaurus ortliebi are, at present, only known from Ciply in the south of Belgium, towards the French border. I don't know, but it seems entirely possible that there was a slightly different ecosystem in place in that area.

 

7 hours ago, Praefectus said:

I wish there was a photo reference for what P. marshi pterygoid teeth look like. 

 

Although left unidentified, I believe this section of jaw to be palatal. And while positioned, in the display, right next to a rooted M. hoffmannii, a batch of what appear to be pterygoidal Mosasaurus sp. teeth close-by would both suggest this interpretation is possible, as well as that this section of jaw is plioplatecarpine, therefore probably Plioplatecarpus marshi. Note the strong recurve.

 

 

 

One thing that does bug me Joris' tooth, however, is its preservation. For the base colour of his tooth appears black, especially in the second set of photographs (the ones Trevor posted), rather than a creamy white that is present on all teeth from either Eben Emael, Sibbergroeve, or Pietersberg I've seen. The sheen and way the enamel appears roled in these second photographs also reminds me much more of the preservation found in Ozan Formation teeth from Texas (including ones in my own collection), rather than those from the Low Countries... 

[JorisVV]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:28 PM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree. Most teeth from the Dutch chalk are easily attributable, however, when one considers the species-list as, with limited choice, matches are easy enough to make. As Trevor pointed out, P. marshi truly is the most commonly known species from the Dutch Maastrichtian. But that may also be a bias based on exactly the aforementioned approach...

 

 

I've gone through some of my reference material and now agree that the curvature is not enough to warrant attribution to the pterygoid. Those would indeed be recurved more strongly.

 

Below are a P. marshi (first/ left) and Platecarpus sp. (second/ right l tooth from the Natural History Museum of Maastricht for comparison of normal curvature in these teeth.

 

 

 

That's a valid point. However, it's good to keep in mind that Hainosaurus bernardi and Phosphorosaurus ortliebi are, at present, only known from Ciply in the south of Belgium, towards the French border. I don't know, but it seems entirely possible that there was a slightly different ecosystem in place in that area.

 

 

Although left unidentified, I believe this section of jaw to be palatal. And while positioned, in the display, right next to a rooted M. hoffmannii, a batch of what appear to be pterygoidal Mosasaurus sp. teeth close-by would both suggest this interpretation is possible, as well as that this section of jaw is plioplatecarpine, therefore probably Plioplatecarpus marshi. Note the strong recurve.

 

 

 

One thing that does bug me Joris' tooth, however, is its preservation. For the base colour of his tooth appears black, especially in the second set of photographs (the ones Trevor posted), rather than a creamy white that is present on all teeth from either Eben Emael, Sibbergroeve, or Pietersberg I've seen. The sheen and way the enamel appears roled in these second photographs also reminds me much more of the preservation found in Ozan Formation teeth from Texas (including ones in my own collection), rather than those from the Low Countries... 

I get your concern. But i aquired this tooth from a friend/person who hunted these teeth directly from The Netherlands. 

 

The pictures i took (first one) is also made in a different light in the middle of the day, hence your confusion. For the rest i can reassure you it is a Dutch mosasaur tooth. 

 

 

[Praefectus]

On 4/9/2023 at 5:19 AM, JorisVV said:

For the rest i can reassure you it is a Dutch mosasaur tooth. 

We are talking about the identification, not the locality. 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

3 hours ago, Praefectus said:

We are talking about the identification, not the locality. 

 

No, I actually did raise a concern about the preservation appearing to be different from what is usual for teeth I've seen come out of the Low Countries/Limburg chalk. But Joris cleared that up for me.

[Praefectus]

On 4/14/2023 at 5:04 PM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

No, I actually did raise a concern about the preservation appearing to be different from what is usual for teeth I've seen come out of the Low Countries/Limburg chalk. But Joris cleared that up for me.

Ah, my mistake. I have to read these threads more closely. 

[JorisVV]

UPDATE: 

 

New - A lovely 2'60 canadian Tyrannosauridae tooth from the DP formation, Belly river group Canada.

 

 

A beautiful 4'52 Spinosaurus sp. tooth with serrations and amazing preservation. KKB, Taouz in Morocco. 

 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

58 minutes ago, JorisVV said:

A beautiful 4'52 Spinosaurus sp. tooth with serrations and amazing preservation. KKB, Taouz in Morocco. 

 

 

That's quite a chunky looking spinosaur tooth!

[North]

I like that dark brown color tone on tyrannosauridae tooth. Seems that those tend to have this nice small color texture.

[Meatasaurus93]

Excellent pick ups. That Spino tooth is impressive!