Moroccan mosasaur teeth #3

[Notidanodon]

Hi guys, got a few more teeth, hoping these aren’t all thalassinotitan  

1. This one likely is thalassinotitan but it has some unusual striations 

 

2. this one has a weird root

 

3. I Would say thalassinotitan but it’s quite large compared to the others 

[Notidanodon]

@pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon @Praefectus would 3 maybe be eremiasaurus?

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

1. This tooth appears to have a mediodistal curve, as well as the "striations" you mentioned. Based on the curvature, I'd say this is not a prognathontid tooth, but rather a mosasaurine one. In addition, these "striae" are, in fact, faceting, which, while not very pronounced, does make me think this tooth could be a Mosasaurus beaugei.
2. While it certainly has a weird root, I'm not sure at what point you'd start calling such a root pathological, although it does seem like something may have prevented the tooth to break through the jaw in a more typical fashion. Unless I'm mistaken, replacement teeth in snakes grow into the jaw from a horizontal position, and something similar may be going on here, which would make this tooth pathological due to it being a regressive trait. But that's all speculation, of course. In any case, the tooth itself appears to be your run-of-the-mill Thalassotitan atrox.
3. The tooth appears to be lightly prismatic in circumference and has only a single anterior carina. I'd say your assumption is correct and this tooth would be Eremiasaurus heterodontus.

Hope this helps

[Notidanodon]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:20 AM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

1. This tooth appears to have a mediodistal curve, as well as the "striations" you mentioned. Based on the curvature, I'd say this is not a prognathontid tooth, but rather a mosasaurine one. In addition, these "striae" are, in fact, faceting, which, while not very pronounced, does make me think this tooth could be a Mosasaurus beaugei.
2. While it certainly has a weird root, I'm not sure at what point you'd start calling such a root pathological, although it does seem like something may have prevented the tooth to break through the jaw in a more typical fashion. Unless I'm mistaken, replacement teeth in snakes grow into the jaw from a horizontal position, and something similar may be going on here, which would make this tooth pathological due to it being a regressive trait. But that's all speculation, of course. In any case, the tooth itself appears to be your run-of-the-mill Thalassotitan atrox.
3. The tooth appears to be lightly prismatic in circumference and has only a single anterior carina. I'd say your assumption is correct and this tooth would be Eremiasaurus heterodontus.

Hope this helps

That more than helps thanks so much  where do you get your identifications from or is it just memorised? I’m trying to learn because I have a batch of about 20 that I want to identify without clogging up the id section haha

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

5 hours ago, Notidanodon said:

That more than helps thanks so much  where do you get your identifications from or is it just memorised? I’m trying to learn because I have a batch of about 20 that I want to identify without clogging up the id section haha

 

Just from having seen a lot and a lot of teeth and gradually learning to recognize their identifying features. It's, of course, not very helpful to shove this off to connoisseurship, but that's basically what it is for me right now. I've long had this idea of somehow making a diagram that will help in the identification of Moroccan mosasaur teeth, however. But that'll take quite a bit of work to get done properly as there's such interspecific as well as intraspecific variation.

[Notidanodon]

3 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Just from having seen a lot and a lot of teeth and gradually learning to recognize their identifying features. It's, of course, not very helpful to shove this off to connoisseurship, but that's basically what it is for me right now. I've long had this idea of somehow making a diagram that will help in the identification of Moroccan mosasaur teeth, however. But that'll take quite a bit of work to get done properly as there's such interspecific as well as intraspecific variation.

Ok yeah fair enough it’s the same with me and sharks teeth! I’ll keep posting mine for ID over a long period of time  

[Praefectus]

1 and 2 are Eremiasaurus heterodontus teeth. Different jaw positions. First one looks to be pterygoidal (no anterior carina) while the second looks to be a mid-marginal tooth (bicarinate, triangular side profile).

 

3 is either an Eremiasaurus heterodontus or Thalassotitan atrox anterior tooth. 

 

On 3/19/2023 at 6:20 AM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

• This tooth appears to have a mediodistal curve, as well as the "striations" you mentioned. Based on the curvature, I'd say this is not a prognathontid tooth, but rather a mosasaurine one. In addition, these "striae" are, in fact, faceting, which, while not very pronounced, does make me think this tooth could be a Mosasaurus beaugei.
• While it certainly has a weird root, I'm not sure at what point you'd start calling such a root pathological, although it does seem like something may have prevented the tooth to break through the jaw in a more typical fashion. Unless I'm mistaken, replacement teeth in snakes grow into the jaw from a horizontal position, and something similar may be going on here, which would make this tooth pathological due to it being a regressive trait. But that's all speculation, of course. In any case, the tooth itself appears to be your run-of-the-mill Thalassotitan atrox.
• The tooth appears to be lightly prismatic in circumference and has only a single anterior carina. I'd say your assumption is correct and this tooth would be Eremiasaurus heterodontus.

Prognathodontids are mosasaurines . I'm not seeing enamel ornamentation on any of the pictured teeth. E. heterodontus sometimes has ridges along the base of the crown (various Moroccan Prognathodontine morphs have flutes/ridges too, despite what the literature says ). I've seen where the root gets displaced like the second tooth commonly enough that I don't think it is pathology. Some sort of weird tooth morph. 

 

On 3/20/2023 at 12:19 PM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

I've long had this idea of somehow making a diagram that will help in the identification of Moroccan mosasaur teeth, however. But that'll take quite a bit of work to get done properly as there's such interspecific as well as intraspecific variation.

All you have to do is account for morphological and ontogenetic variation between anterior, mid, posterior, and pterygoid teeth for about ~20ish species. Should be easy. 

[Notidanodon]

31 minutes ago, Praefectus said:

1 and 2 are Eremiasaurus heterodontus teeth. Different jaw positions. First one looks to be pterygoidal (no anterior carina) while the second looks to be a mid-marginal tooth (bicarinate, triangular side profile).

 

3 is either an Eremiasaurus heterodontus or Thalassotitan atrox anterior tooth. 

 

Prognathodontids are mosasaurines . I'm not seeing enamel ornamentation on any of the pictured teeth. E. heterodontus sometimes has ridges along the base of the crown (various Moroccan Prognathodontine morphs have flutes/ridges too, despite what the literature says ). I've seen where the root gets displaced like the second tooth commonly enough that I don't think it is pathology. Some sort of weird tooth morph. 

 

All you have to do is account for morphological and ontogenetic variation between anterior, mid, posterior, and pterygoid teeth for about ~20ish species. Should be easy. 

Thanks  can thalassotitan have facets? the first tooth does they show up best in the last photo  

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

1 hour ago, Praefectus said:

1 and 2 are Eremiasaurus heterodontus teeth. Different jaw positions. First one looks to be pterygoidal (no anterior carina) while the second looks to be a mid-marginal tooth (bicarinate, triangular side profile).

 

It looks to me like on the last photograph of the first tooth faceting can be seen. Based on the second photograph of this tooth, I moreover thought I saw an anterior carina, which then gave me the impression of a mediodistal curvature. Maybe I misinterpreted this, however. If there's no anterior carina, then I agree, Mosasaurus is out.

 

As to the second tooth, I'm not too familiar with mid-magrinal teeth in E. heterodontus, so wouldn't be able to compare. However, I remember us having had this discussion before, and I'd say it remains a tough call between E. heterodontus and T. atrox. At least for me

 

1 hour ago, Praefectus said:

Prognathodontids are mosasaurines .

 

Here I ment to refer to the tribe, "mosasaurini", rather than the subfamily. Maybe I used the wrong word for it, though. That's possible

 

1 hour ago, Praefectus said:

I'm not seeing enamel ornamentation on any of the pictured teeth. E. heterodontus sometimes has ridges along the base of the crown (various Moroccan Prognathodontine morphs have flutes/ridges too, despite what the literature says ).

 

In my experience, E. heterodontus can be slightly prismatic at the base, so this would, indeed, not result in enamel ornamentation, whereas what's sometimes seen on Moroccan prognathodontid teeth I'd classify as faceting following Hornung and Reich (2014). None of these teeth display the former feature, however, though the first tooth might exhibit the second - depending on interpretation of the tooth.

 

1 hour ago, Praefectus said:

I've seen where the root gets displaced like the second tooth commonly enough that I don't think it is pathology. Some sort of weird tooth morph.

 

Interesting. First time I've seen a root look like this...

 

1 hour ago, Praefectus said:

All you have to do is account for morphological and ontogenetic variation between anterior, mid, posterior, and pterygoid teeth for about ~20ish species. Should be easy. 

 

Exactly! Wouldn't know where to start! Don't even think I've seen all tooth positions and pterygoids even! However, I think it would already be a great benefit to collectors on this forum if you'd have a diagram to help with the initial identification of the most common tooth morphs. It doesn't need to cover the complete spectrum, just as long as the more common types of teeth could easily be identified. Would help with the plethora of questions we encounter in threads like there, I think

[Notidanodon]

13 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

It looks to me like on the last photograph of the first tooth faceting can be seen. Based on the second photograph of this tooth, I moreover thought I saw an anterior carina, which then gave me the impression of a mediodistal curvature. Maybe I misinterpreted this, however. If there's no anterior carina, then I agree, Mosasaurus is out.

Yeah im going to go try and get better photos of that tooth to clear up whether it is faceted because theyre only visible in the last photo  

 

15 hours ago, Praefectus said:

I'm not seeing enamel ornamentation on any of the pictured teeth. E. heterodontus sometimes has ridges along the base of the crown (various Moroccan Prognathodontine morphs have flutes/ridges too, despite what the literature says ). I've seen where the root gets displaced like the second tooth commonly enough that I don't think it is pathology. Some sort of weird tooth morph. 

these tricky mosasaur identifications remind me  odontaspidae 

13 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

nteresting. First time I've seen a root look like this...

Funnily enough ive seen one or two with similar characteristics before actually, i had just assumed they were a common pathology

Thanks both for going through these with me  

 

[Notidanodon]

Yeah I believe the facets were a trick of the light I don’t see them

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Okay, so E. heterodontus palatal tooth it is then

[Praefectus]

On 3/21/2023 at 8:16 PM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Here I ment to refer to the tribe, "mosasaurini", rather than the subfamily. Maybe I used the wrong word for it, though. That's possible

 

I'm pretty sure mosasaurine refers to the subfamily Mosasaurinae and not the tribe Mosasaurini. I'm not sure, I might be wrong too. 

 

On 3/21/2023 at 8:16 PM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

In my experience, E. heterodontus can be slightly prismatic at the base, so this would, indeed, not result in enamel ornamentation, whereas what's sometimes seen on Moroccan prognathodontid teeth I'd classify as faceting following Hornung and Reich (2014). None of these teeth display the former feature, however, though the first tooth might exhibit the second - depending on interpretation of the tooth.

I think that officially, Eremiasaurus teeth are supposed to be unornamented. While sorting through buckets and buckets of loose tooth crowns, I have found the occasional Eremiasaurus tooth that has ridges along the very base.

 

(I don't have a photo of one of mine handy, but here is an example from @lesofprimus's collection that shows it really well.)  

 

On 3/21/2023 at 8:16 PM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Exactly! Wouldn't know where to start! Don't even think I've seen all tooth positions and pterygoids even! However, I think it would already be a great benefit to collectors on this forum if you'd have a diagram to help with the initial identification of the most common tooth morphs. It doesn't need to cover the complete spectrum, just as long as the more common types of teeth could easily be identified. Would help with the plethora of questions we encounter in threads like there, I think

I think we can do a complete spectrum identification guide. The paper would probably be 200+ pictures and thick as a book. Give it a few years