ID help please, Peace River

[Amarykah]

Crown measures 10.7mm. The small size confuses me. Is it possibly from a baby? I’ve researched but am just getting more confused. I know it’s a brachydont but that’s as far as I’m getting. Baby pig? Baby bear? Opossum? I found it in someone’s discard pile!  I haven’t found a tooth like this yet and am excited to have found it in the jaw  thanks in advance! @Meganeura @Shellseeker @Harry Pristis

[Meganeura]

Very worn, but peccary? Peccaries were smaller than pigs after all. 

[Amarykah]

35 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

Very worn, but peccary? Peccaries were smaller than pigs after all. 

Ok I can see how it could be that now. Lower right m2? But they were THIS small?? Wow! If it’s this worn then it can’t be a baby, correct? And is this a rare find? You know how much I seek to find the rare little fossils  

[Meganeura]

Just now, Amarykah said:

Ok I can see how it could be that now. Lower right m2? But they were THIS small?? Wow! If it’s this worn then it can’t be a baby, correct? And is this a rare find? You know how much I seek to find the rare little fossils  

I think they could be that small! @Harry Pristis as always should know. Peccary teeth aren’t super rare - but you found it in a jaw, so that makes it rarer significantly in my opinion! 

[Harry Pristis]

Dunno . . . could be from several creatures, judging from the images.

[Shellseeker]

Amarykah,

I figure I'll take you into the unknown,  the speculative,  not to where you can say with certainty,  but just maybe enough to have yu think you might know what fauna created this fossil.

So we start with knowing little or nothing... Daniel said it might be peccary.. that's a place to start,  and if it does not turn out to be peccary,  we can always blame Daniel..

What is it that we know ?  How many roots does it have?  Can you tell ?

In your 1st photo, seems like it has one forward larger "platform" and two little platforms behind it.

Has those lower enamel edges that seem to match pig/peccary/rhino/elephant, etc  but the width of the jaw implies a smaller animal.

It has an Alveoli to help us..  We need to think whether that is the size of a molar or a premolar.

So, time to check the internet:

https://www.myfossil.org/featured-fossil-miocene-peccary-lower-jaw/

 

Look at that a complete Peccary lower jaw with lots of teeth (6) in it.... p1,2,3,m1,2,3

 

Closeup1

 

You can put your spin on it,  but when thinking of peccary lower jaw, my eyes tend to focus on that p3 as the first of our candidates.. It might have that 2 platforms behind and that larger one forward....

 

Things that occur to me...

Look at Peccary upper jaw teeth....

Find any and all standalone peccary p3 to see how they compare..

 

 

[Meganeura]

24 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Daniel said it might be peccary.. that's a place to start,  and if it does not turn out to be peccary,  we can always blame Daniel..

Heyyyyyyy!

 

I agree though - it does look like an upper jaw section with how elongated the bottom is. Unfortunately can’t see how many holes for roots other teeth might have which would give a clear answer. It does seem to match the p3 though as well.

[Shellseeker]

Some years ago , I found one of my VERY few peccary teeth.... no jaw attached....

 

Different peccary and different tooth position..

Here is a premolar, I believe a p3. once again Compressus.  note the roots.. 

I think yours is a different species,  so would have different features..... possibly

 

[Amarykah]

20 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Amarykah,

I figure I'll take you into the unknown,  the speculative,  not to where you can say with certainty,  but just maybe enough to have yu think you might know what fauna created this fossil.

So we start with knowing little or nothing... Daniel said it might be peccary.. that's a place to start,  and if it does not turn out to be peccary,  we can always blame Daniel..

What is it that we know ?  How many roots does it have?  Can you tell ?

In your 1st photo, seems like it has one forward larger "platform" and two little platforms behind it.

Has those lower enamel edges that seem to match pig/peccary/rhino/elephant, etc  but the width of the jaw implies a smaller animal.

It has an Alveoli to help us..  We need to think whether that is the size of a molar or a premolar.

So, time to check the internet:

https://www.myfossil.org/featured-fossil-miocene-peccary-lower-jaw/

 

Look at that a complete Peccary lower jaw with lots of teeth (6) in it.... p1,2,3,m1,2,3

 

Closeup1

 

You can put your spin on it,  but when thinking of peccary lower jaw, my eyes tend to focus on that p3 as the first of our candidates.. It might have that 2 platforms behind and that larger one forward....

 

Things that occur to me...

Look at Peccary upper jaw teeth....

Find any and all standalone peccary p3 to see how they compare..

 

 

Can we use “blame Daniel” for everything we possibly misidentify? Haha just kidding  

I think I only see two roots but there is some very hard material that covers where I’d be able to tell for certain. When I looked at peccary teeth in jaw previously, I thought it was likely lower right m2, but from your pictures and explanation I think I was counting the teeth backwards and I’m pretty sure you’re calling the tooth I had been referring to p3. I’m self-taught so things like this will happen. Lower right p3 seems the most likely in my opinion if it is peccary. 
 

Someone else told me “Bear is low crowned and if damaged like this, easily disfigured.. Peccary is usually not as long, and has a more pronounced crown..” But my thinking tells me that this tiny tooth is so worn that it has to be from a smaller adult animal and isn’t likely a baby that had an overeating disorder and wore it’s lil teeth down haha. 

[Amarykah]

2 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

Heyyyyyyy!

 

I agree though - it does look like an upper jaw section with how elongated the bottom is. Unfortunately can’t see how many holes for roots other teeth might have which would give a clear answer. It does seem to match the p3 though as well.

Wait, UPPER?! Man, am I bad at this. Can I blame you for this too? Hahaha just kidding

[Amarykah]

7 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

Heyyyyyyy!

 

I agree though - it does look like an upper jaw section with how elongated the bottom is. Unfortunately can’t see how many holes for roots other teeth might have which would give a clear answer. It does seem to match the p3 though as well.

Should I clean it out to see? It’s possible for it to have two or three roots. I can’t be certain. 

[Meganeura]

4 minutes ago, Amarykah said:

Can we use “blame Daniel” for everything we possibly misidentify? Haha just kidding  

I think I only see two roots but there is some very hard material that covers where I’d be able to tell for certain. When I looked at peccary teeth in jaw previously, I thought it was likely lower right m2, but from your pictures and explanation I think I was counting the teeth backwards and I’m pretty sure you’re calling the tooth I had been referring to p3. I’m self-taught so things like this will happen. Lower right p3 seems the most likely in my opinion if it is peccary. 
 

Someone else told me “Bear is low crowned and if damaged like this, easily disfigured.. Peccary is usually not as long, and has a more pronounced crown..” But my thinking tells me that this tiny tooth is so worn that it has to be from a smaller adult animal and isn’t likely a baby that had an overeating disorder and wore it’s lil teeth down haha. 

Much too small to be bear, I think. I have a very worn peccary tooth at home that’s relatively similar to yours!

 

Also for the teeth - you technically start in the  middle - count backwards for molars (m1, m2, m3 as you get towards the throat), and then count down as you go forward for premolars (p4 is in the middle, p3, p2, p1 - though some animals don’t have p2 or p1).

[Shellseeker]

2 minutes ago, Amarykah said:

Should I clean it out to see? It’s possible for it to have two or three roots. I can’t be certain. 

I am not providing a Link because this is still "for sale"

Roots for the P. compressus I posted above

[Meganeura]

3 minutes ago, Amarykah said:

Should I clean it out to see? It’s possible for it to have two or three roots. I can’t be certain. 

Clean it? If it’s dirt, yes!

[Amarykah]

6 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

I am not providing a Link because this is still "for sale"

Roots for the P. compressus I posted above

Mine definitely doesn’t have 4 roots. Could be 2 or 3

[Amarykah]

6 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

Clean it? If it’s dirt, yes!

Feel free to laugh at this but…with vinegar? Or what? It looks like dirt but is very hard. I will likely have to use a pick or something - it won’t come off with my nail. (Again, I’m a trauma therapist and self-taught..)

[Meganeura]

8 minutes ago, Amarykah said:

Feel free to laugh at this but…with vinegar? Or what? It looks like dirt but is very hard. I will likely have to use a pick or something - it won’t come off with my nail. (Again, I’m a trauma therapist and self-taught..)

If it’s stuck on that hard - leave it. Not worth risking the fossil. I was imagining sand!

[Amarykah]

6 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

If it’s stuck on that hard - leave it. Not worth risking the fossil. I was imagining sand!

Ok here are some wet pics - not sure you can see more, but seems like it to me. I got just a little bit of the hard material off maybe it will help. Video may not help much but I added it anyway. 

[Meganeura]

Looks more like an upper to me - @Shellseeker would you agree with that?

[Amarykah]

I think I’m the only one who mentioned lower  this part of jaw (where pen points) makes me think only one other tooth could fit before there is too much jawbone for another tooth to be there. 

[Meganeura]

30 minutes ago, Amarykah said:

I think I’m the only one who mentioned lower  this part of jaw (where pen points) makes me think only one other tooth could fit before there is too much jawbone for another tooth to be there. 

What do you mean by too much jawbone? So the thing with peccaries, they have (and I’m forgetting the scientific name for it) a space between their premolars and their incisors. Assuming this is a p3, peccaries (I believe, I may be totally wrong) only have a p2 after, which would fit that. 

[Amarykah]

7 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

What do you mean by too much jawbone? So the thing with peccaries, they have (and I’m forgetting the scientific name for it) a space between their premolars and their incisors. Assuming this is a p3, peccaries (I believe, I may be totally wrong) only have a p2 after, which would fit that. 

I meant that p3 fits this (since u said before that they don’t always have p2/1). But maybe that’s how you deduced that it was likely p3 in the first place and I’m just now catching on…. I’m ultimately labeling it as upper p3 peccary. I’m happy with that  thank you for all the help! 

[JohnJ]

Something else I learned on TFF...the Upper teeth are designated by Upper Case letters (P3) and lower teeth by lower case letters (p3).

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Meganeura said:

Looks more like an upper to me - @Shellseeker would you agree with that?

Daniel,  I am not that good on uppers versus lowers, especially on peccary which is an infrequent find. My tendency here was to think "lower jaw"  because of the width of the jaw and lack of breakage on either side of the jaw.

I now it is not exactly equivalent, but here is a Capybara maxilla that has skull material around the teeth,

1 hour ago, Amarykah said:

I think I’m the only one who mentioned lower  this part of jaw (where pen points) makes me think only one other tooth could fit before there is too much jawbone for another tooth to be there. 

What do you think Amarykah ?  Can the tooth you found "fit" into the Alveoli you have?  If not , I think the Alveoli contained a pre_molar,  maybe just one number down..

 

Another thing that we could find out.  What Peccaries existed in the Florida fossil record.  Do you have a secret spot that contains Miocene age fossils? Do NOT answer that....

[Meganeura]

15 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Daniel,  I am not that good on uppers versus lowers, especially on peccary which is an infrequent find. My tendency here was to think "lower jaw"  because of the width of the jaw and lack of breakage on either side of the jaw.

I now it is not exactly equivalent, but here is a Capybara maxilla that has skull material around the teeth,

What do you think Amarykah ?  Can the tooth you found "fit" into the Alveoli you have?  If not , I think the Alveoli contained a pre_molar,  maybe just one number down..

 

Another thing that we could find out.  What Peccaries existed in the Florida fossil record.  Do you have a secret spot that contains Miocene age fossils? Do NOT answer that....

She’s certainly got a secret spot! Glyptodon tooth. Sloth tooth. Peccary jaw. Ha!