Going to Wonderland

[Shellseeker]

I know that I went hunting yesterday.  My neck and back muscles are screaming at me.

 

We go to places we have visited before... In this case, some sort of coral reef or shell bed that was laid down , most likely in the Pliocene. Steve, who worked in the Phosphate mines said that there were 3 layers of shell beds in Bone Valley mines where he worked. Land mammal remains between the shell layers.

 

In some locations,  the Peace River has brought those layers close to the surface.              I call this location wonderland.  When ever I go there ... I wonder..

I wonder what layer I am finding.. Pliocene ?  Miocene,  whatever the 1st layer is... I wonder what process created what I see....

I went back in TFF to find that I have not revisited this location in more than 2 years.

Back to the yesterday,   A Barnacle.... This is solid rock... or blended silica with sand , mud , shell ..I wonder if the Barnacle "shell" filled with sand or mud and the silica transformed the whole thing to rock,  sand mud , everything.. and I always wonder about the process details...

 

Shells.....

        ..I wonder if we can identify the shells because that might tells us if there were Pliocene or Miocene.... I wonder about the process details... This is not hard fossilized rock like the barnacle...

This is like mud rock,, that would break or crumble pretty easily

So the shells existed on the bottom of the ocean,  the ocean receded, Peace River brings in fresh water,  somehow it is making mud-rock (which is common in many forms)... the shell sticks to the mud rock,  then the silicification comes along changing the shells ,not the mud-rock., and the whole thing gets worn down until I pick it up....

Shell # 1

 

2nd Shell ..The rock weighs 40-50 pounds...  a heavy item on the trip back in my kayak..Is this whole bivalve there ?  Was this one transformed to Silica.... I wonder ...

 

I also find botryoidal chalcedony,  some bigger... some smaller.  I think this formed in a "cave" in a echinoid sand dollar...

 

Finally for those who appreciate more traditional Florida fossils, I found some of these also.

Really like this tooth,  it exihibits serrations with feeding damage and those CUSPS  !!!... I wonder if if cusps on Megs is only true of Pliocene Megs.  I am sad to say that it looks like the chipped the root on recovery. 

 

I guess what it comes down to is I am a wondering kind of guy....Enjoy

 

[Fin Lover]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Really like this tooth,  it exihibits serrations with feeding damage and those CUSPS  !!!... I wonder if if cusps on Megs is only true of Pliocene Megs. 

I know you've said before that you had to make your own decision on this, but some would say that this is a Miocene chub.  Maybe it is somewhere in between, but then wouldn't Miocene be more likely than Pliocene?  Either way, they are cool teeth.

 

Not trying to argue with your beliefs, just learning.    I find angustidens with a wide range of cusp sizes and shapes, so I know there is a lot of variation within species.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Fin Lover
Added last part

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Fin Lover said:

I know you've said before that you had to make your own decision on this, but some would say that this is a Miocene chub.  Maybe it is somewhere in between, but then wouldn't Miocene be more likely than Pliocene?  Either way, they are cool teeth.

 

Not trying to argue with your beliefs, just learning.    I find angustidens with a wide range of cusp sizes and shapes, so I know there is a lot of variation within species.

I think it depends on personality.... Do you like to hold only proven facts  or are you willing to entertain probabilities and then hold them in a similar manner to proven facts? How low does your probability index go ?  I happen to be one of those people who can happily deal in the low probability range..

 

On the question of Chubs from the Peace River or Bone Valley mines.  I think that Angys , Rics, and Chubs are ALL ancestors of the Meg. Most experts agree that we do not find Angys or Rics in Bone Valley , for the same reason that we do not have dinosaurs fossils in bone valley.

What about Chubs, a much younger species than Angys or Rics..  As far as I know we have no formations in Bone Valley that have fossils that predate the Miocene. I heard the rumor that during the Cretaceous, what is modern day Florida was 4000 feet down under the seas.

Mark Renz ,  who wrote numerous books on Florida fossil hunting,  wrote one on the Megalodon : Hunting the Hunter,  that stated that Juvenile Megs could have pronounced cusps as regressive genes from their ancestors,  and those cusps disappeared in Adult Megs (larger than 25 feet).  I have not seen anything to refute that... and my own experience reinforces it.. I have found numerous Meg_like teeth with cusps in the Peace River... ALL are 2.25 inches or less.

There is a rumor that Chubs have been found in the Phosphate mines of Bone Valley... large teeth well over 3 inches .  It should be possible.  The layers and the fauna in the mines date at a minimum to 15-16 million years, middle Miocene.   So, the question in my mind is,  if Chubs exist in the Phosphate mines,  where are they being sold.. I personally know a number of top end Megalodon dealers, who would give their eye_teeth to offer for sale a 4 inch Chub out of Bone Valley  and they somehow obtain Megalodons without cusps at 4-5 inches at a frequent basis.

 

Seems to me that preponderance of evidence says No Chubs and Juvenile Megs have cusps.. But I am open to persuasion to facts stated by a Florida Paleontologist who has developed expertise in Megalodons...and at the same time I am always on the lookout for 100 mm Megs with Cusps...

The transition between Carcharocles chubutensis and Carcharocles megalodon Otodontidae Chondrichthyes lateral cusplet loss through time.pdf

 

Have not found any yet...

[Fin Lover]

I'm saying that if they are indeed cusped megs, wouldn't they be earlier megs (Miocene instead of Pliocene?

 

I thought chubs were earlier Miocene and megs were Miocene-Pliocene.  

Edited May 9, 2023 by Fin Lover

[JBkansas]

Do all juvenile meg teeth from a certain layer have the cusps? Could the cusped small teeth be a smaller concurrent species (like nano to T. Rex)?

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Fin Lover said:

I'm saying that if they are indeed cusped megs, wouldn't they be earlier megs (Miocene instead of Pliocene?

 

I thought chubs were earlier Miocene and megs were Miocene-Pliocene.  

Yes... true..

In the paper I attached , Scientists analyzed the Chub transition to Megs in Maryland... It looks like Chubs lost their cusps (and thus indistinguishable from megs) 20-15 myas in Maryland. 

There is a chart that maps sea level against geological age...It is pretty similar along the east coast of the US.. Sea level drops a couple of times at 16 mya and 15 mya , which is approximately the age of the Phosphate mines and the unique mammal fauna (Tridactyl horses) we find in layers...

It then starts dropping at 14 mya and continues low into and thru the Pliocene and rising again the last 5 mya.. The Megs disappeared say 2-3 myas.  I have found some late Miocene Rhino dated 10 mya,  and some other mammal fauna dates 3-4 mya.

 

Basically  there were only a few periods of time when Megs or Chubs could have the opportunity to drop teeth in Bone Valley.

 

In Maryland ,there are LOTS of Chubs in some formations,  and lots of Megs in other formation.  In Bone valley we have LOTS of Megs,  few or no Chubs yet.... To me the transition idea ( and an earlier date for cusped Megs I find) would be more plausible if we had a lot more Chubs being found.

 

My feeling is that this is a regressive trait that a few Megs had and lost their teeth in the Mio_Pliocene boundary. SO, I feel that the ones I find are more likely Pliocene Megs, but there are lots of other views and I can respect that...

[Fin Lover]

Sorry if my question was not originally well-articulated.  It was the comment about cusped megs only being from the Pliocene (instead of Miocene) that confused me.  

 

The book I have shows the transition around 15.9 mya in SC.  That would be consistent with the FL phosphate mines having some chubs (or early cusped megs) then.  

[Shellseeker]

8 minutes ago, JBkansas said:

Do all juvenile meg teeth from a certain layer have the cusps? Could the cusped small teeth be a smaller concurrent species (like nano to T. Rex)?

I am only specking from my experience and a few others who I hunt with....Finding LOTS of Megs in a short period of time is really unusual.  That has only happened 5 times in 15 years...

In general, on a good Meg day I might find 3 or 4 .  I estimate that over the last 15 years,  I have found 1800-2000 Megs... half of that would be below 2 inches... I keep every one I find that has cusps.  I have somewhere around 40 of these..

So my quick answer is no..  Cusps on a Megs are a 1 % case or less.

Maybe another species , but I don't know how to figure that out..  Mine look exactly like Megs with cusps...

[Shellseeker]

11 minutes ago, Fin Lover said:

Sorry if my question was not originally well-articulated.  It was the comment about cusped megs only being from the Pliocene (instead of Miocene) that confused me.  

 

The book I have shows the transition around 15.9 mya in SC.  That would be consistent with the FL phosphate mines having some chubs (or early cusped megs) then.  

 

I think that your question is fine.. I do think that that cusped Megs are more likely from the Pliocene than the Miocene.   and you question is probing why do I think that......

I am primarily a Peace River hunter... hunting on land or in creeks is a much smaller % of my efforts...From a mammal perspective, the Peace River is dominated by Pleistocene fauna  which has taken a lot of abuse in the rocky rough and tumble environment.. Many fossils are very worn/broken..

Fossils from the Miocene in the Peace River tend to be very water eroded... Dugong, Stingray,  Megs wher eheavy water erosion occurs...

The % of cusped Megs in better shape than non_cusped Megs than would be expected in their % of the population...  Take a look at this 1st one,   the preservation for a peace River Meg is amazing...Note the slight bump on the Blue one versus the clear cusp on the "baby" Meg...

 

This possibly has other explanations.  Since it is very hard to find "facts" on this topic,  I think it is just fine to have differing views on what the "facts"  imply....   Jack