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Smilodon Incisor from Pleistocene of North Florida?


Pliosaur

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Hello,

 

Just want to ask for some opinions on whether this is a Smilodon incisor and how one would be able to identify it as such since it’s in pretty worn condition, it seems more likely that it could be either dire wolf or bear and that the “Smilodon name” is just to get more attention and money for the fossil? 
 

Thanks in advance, appreciate any help! 

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This discussion was for a better condition “Smilodon incisor” and even then it was extremely difficult to identify it as such given the pics, location , measurements, etc 

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I would not assume this is Smilodon, does not fit

not well enough preserved for a clear determination

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@rocket I would also agree with the assessment as you can’t even make out the enamel on the tooth 

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In Smilodon incisors, the root is highly diagnostic, much more so than the enamel. There are no other critters in the Pleistocene with such a long laterally compressed root compared to such a short enamel. Attached are pictures of another Smilodon incisor (with complete enamel) from our collection for comparison. Dire wolf and bear incisors are immensely dissimilar. 

346109249_1421267768703519_2485553391538595971_n.jpg

346141999_185112620760452_6323373203001630133_n.jpg

346170582_775146920784964_1028966765253005273_n.jpg

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9 hours ago, Meganeura said:

@PrehistoricFlorida Nate knows his stuff - but I do agree it's quite the strange one. @Shellseeker what are your thoughts?

Daniel,

I took a zoom call near St Augustine from 2-3 pm today, and then drove thru Orlando rush hour to Sanibel. "Nate knows his stuff" is a little of an understatement. Nate , like Harry have been Fossil Dealers forever, and have assembled the Best comparative collections of Florida Fossils outside of museums. 

Nate specializes in the fossil teeth of Florida predators.. It gives him a huge advantage in fossil identifications. He can hold nearly perfect versions in comparing to a less than perfect. Our default position, when speaking within their specializations, is that we believe whatever Nate, Larry, Harry,  Bobby,  Richard,  etc say. 

 

Look at this tooth Red circles a cusp !!!! Blue,the labial side of this tooth is conxex

IncisorCusp.JPG.0d4a16437594c591841d25eefe103b67.JPG

 

Look at this tooth:  Is that a carina coming off the cusp? Is the enamel on the Lingual side concave ?IncisorCarina.JPG.b6e90a8b41701c382eba65b08459bf09.JPG

 

The root is straight and robust. flat on the "sides"and a vertical edge on the lingual side...

Suppose like Nate, you have access to actual Smilodon incisors

 

Here is one S. Populator from a research paper...

th-485016772smilodon_Incisor.jpg.d2bbbdef7bf58f6fa16e1395ffc6d5b8.jpg

 

Here is a photo from my collection of Smilodon tooth photos... Not nearly as good as a tooth in hand.

smilodonLowerCanine2.thumb.jpg.06963fd3e84a186759cd09903b16e8cd.jpg

 

Finally I looked a Dire Wolf Incisor..  it looked nothing like the OPs tooth. I came back to this thread and saw Nate's response..He has not posted in a while.I am glad he posted in this case..

IncisorHollow.JPG

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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Would be curious to see how other Pleistocene big cat incisors compare, possibly bobcats, panthers or leopards, and if their teeth share similar morphology to those of Smilodon?

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6 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Daniel,

I took a zoom call near St Augustine from 2-3 pm today, and then drove thru Orlando rush hour to Sanibel. "Nate knows his stuff" is a little of an understatement. Nate , like Harry have been Fossil Dealers forever, and have assembled the Best comparative collections of Florida Fossils outside of museums. 

Nate specializes in the fossil teeth of Florida predators.. It gives him a huge advantage in fossil identifications. He can hold nearly perfect versions in comparing to a less than perfect. Our default position, when speaking within their specializations, is that we believe whatever Nate, Larry, Harry,  Bobby,  Richard,  etc say. 

 

Look at this tooth Red circles a cusp !!!! Blue,the labial side of this tooth is conxex

IncisorCusp.JPG.0d4a16437594c591841d25eefe103b67.JPG

 

Look at this tooth:  Is that a carina coming off the cusp? Is the enamel on the Lingual side concave ?IncisorCarina.JPG.b6e90a8b41701c382eba65b08459bf09.JPG

 

The root is straight and robust. flat on the "sides"and a vertical edge on the lingual side...

Suppose like Nate, you have access to actual Smilodon incisors

 

Here is one S. Populator from a research paper...

th-485016772smilodon_Incisor.jpg.d2bbbdef7bf58f6fa16e1395ffc6d5b8.jpg

 

Here is a photo from my collection of Smilodon tooth photos... Not nearly as good as a tooth in hand.

smilodonLowerCanine2.thumb.jpg.06963fd3e84a186759cd09903b16e8cd.jpg

 

Finally I looked a Dire Wolf Incisor..  it looked nothing like the OPs tooth. I came back to this thread and saw Nate's response..He has not posted in a while.I am glad he posted in this case..

IncisorHollow.JPG

Honestly I tagged Nate not expecting him to respond, and I’m also very glad I did, because that’s some very valuable information I wouldn’t have otherwise figured out!

 

And likewise to you, I had compared the original tooth to others when I first saw it go up on our fav auction site because I was curious. I knew it didn’t match anything I could find but didn’t have that diagnostic info, so!

Fossils? I dig it. :meg:

 

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8 hours ago, Pliosaur said:

Would be curious to see how other Pleistocene big cat incisors compare, possibly bobcats, panthers or leopards, and if their teeth share similar morphology to those of Smilodon?


Bobcats, panthers, and leopards are all conical toothed cats. Their dentitions are quite morphologically different from dirk and scimitar toothed cats. 

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8 hours ago, Pliosaur said:

Would be curious to see how other Pleistocene big cat incisors compare, possibly bobcats, panthers or leopards, and if their teeth share similar morphology to those of Smilodon?

Thanks for this thread, your curiosity, and your followup questions. I live and hunt in Florida. There is much that I did not know (was not sure of) relative to Florida predator incisors.

Also Nate has provided outstanding comparative photos that go directly to my local disks for possible use in future discussions or identifications.

Finally, Nate's comments reinforce my preexisting view of his expertise in this space.

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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