Is this a Sperm Whale tooth ?

[Teddybear]

Hi,

Thank you all so much for your vast expertise. I have been a novice member for some months and have learnt so much from browsing around this forum. It is fascinating and l can happily spend hours here.

I only have a few fossils , all common and easily identified.  But l recently aquired this tooth which with the help of information on this forum l am tentatively labelling as a Sperm Whale tooth (Pygmy ?)

It has horizontal banding and a hollow base which l think are characteristics? Unfortunately l have no information asto its region of origin.  But it does have an old inventory (?) number on it, so it has been in someones collection for a while.

At first glance it looks like there is a horrible repair/ patch on its tip. But this does not seem to be the case, just feeding damage wearing the tooth down to the underlying enamel area ? If l understand this correctly the cementum is on the outside of whale teeth and the enamel only shows through on the tip where it is worn away with feeding ?

Any information as to age ,species etc would be gratefully received. (even if it turns out to be a croc tooth !)

Thanks so much

Sue

[Meganeura]

Pygmy sperm whales (Kogiopsis is one genus I know of) have an entire banded core of enamel, as opposed to just an enamel tip - which this doesn't have, and so this doesn't look like one to me. However, @Boesse is the expert on all things Cetacean (And many other marine fossils) so should be able to confirm. I also know that @Shellseeker really likes cetacean fossils and is much more knowledgeable than I. Either of them will be better able to help out! 

Provenance of the fossil would also have been super helpful, so it's unfortunate that info isn't available.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Meganeura

[Mahnmut]

Hi and welcome to the Forum!

Here is a very informative thread on whale tooth structure:

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/91729-composition-of-whale-teeth/

 

Basically you are right, spermwhale teeth do have an outer layer of cementum covering dentine. There may be a thin layer of enamel covering the cementum, but its often lost by abrasion as far as I understand it. I remember an expert on mammal teeth whom I asked to ID a tooth getting quite interested because he thought he saw rare remaining enamel at the tooths tip, which turned out to be underlying dentine after all.

What you have is clearly a whale tooth, I think spermwhale-related in the broader sense is a valid assumption. The deep root does not look like Physeter to me though.

Others may know more.

Best Regards,

J

 

 

[Shellseeker]

4 hours ago, Teddybear said:

Hi,

Thank you all so much for your vast expertise. I have been a novice member for some months and have learnt so much from browsing around this forum. It is fascinating and l can happily spend hours here.

I only have a few fossils , all common and easily identified.  But l recently aquired this tooth which with the help of information on this forum l am tentatively labelling as a Sperm Whale tooth (Pygmy ?)

It has horizontal banding and a hollow base which l think are characteristics? Unfortunately l have no information asto its region of origin.  But it does have an old inventory (?) number on it, so it has been in someones collection for a while.

At first glance it looks like there is a horrible repair/ patch on its tip. But this does not seem to be the case, just feeding damage wearing the tooth down to the underlying enamel area ? If l understand this correctly the cementum is on the outside of whale teeth and the enamel only shows through on the tip where it is worn away with feeding ?

Any information as to age ,species etc would be gratefully received. (even if it turns out to be a croc tooth !)

Thanks so much

Sue

 

Welcome to Forum,Sue..I hope you find reasons to stay. There are lots of interesting fossils in your part of the world. I hunt Florida and have some expertise in the whale that used to inhabit the seas above what is now Florida, One of those is Kogiopsis floridanus. It is a member of the family Kogiidae. as are the 2 extant members Pygmy and Dwarf Sperm whales.

.

 

Here is one of it's teeth,  from the Middle Miocene Florida Bone Valley Phosphate mines.

 

 

It has a hollow root, horizontal banding that (in my view) tend to differentiate Whale. It is made up of cementum covering an inner core of Dentin (which has those horizontal bands).  I believe that the Tip is polished Dentin, NOT enamel.

There is another large whale present in the Florida Miocene, that does have an enamel tip.  It is called Scaldicetus and can have greater length but especially width when compared to Kopiopsis.

 

 

Unfortunately,  this is just information.  What I can tell you is that it is not Kogiopsis,  and it is not Scaldicetus... I think it comes from the Miocene of California (guessing).  Fortunately an expert who has hunted marine mammals in New Zealand,  and in California...

He will definitely provide expert guidance on your tooth... Jack

 

[Teddybear]

 

Hi Meganeura, Mahnmut and Shellseeker. Thank you for your expert input.  I have read through all the links you have suggested and 'digested' most of it. I am learing a lot of new names and terminology........l  hadn't thought too much about the precise definitions for parts of a tooth before .

So the expossed shiny tip portion of the tooth is dentin not enamel. 

 And it seems from your expert experience  that it is not Physeter, Kogiopsis or Scaldicetus. 

Shellseeker your are suggesting maybe California do you mean something like Aulophyseter morricei ?

Shellseeker l would love to find fossils in the wild, but unfortunately my area of New Zealand is not much blessed with them. I hope to move to the south island soon and l think that will be a better hunting ground.  There is a great youtuber that l sometimes watch who picks up wonderful concretions containing crabs on the beaches of the NE South Island.

Thanks again everyone for all your help.

Regards Sue 

 

 

[Fin Lover]

47 minutes ago, Teddybear said:

There is a great youtuber that l sometimes watch who picks up wonderful concretions containing crabs on the beaches of the NE South Island.

Mamlambo?  He's a member of the forum.  

 

[Teddybear]

Hi FinLover,

Yes thats right ....Mamlambo ! He is great.

Sue

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Teddybear said:

 

Hi Meganeura, Mahnmut and Shellseeker. Thank you for your expert input.  I have read through all the links you have suggested and 'digested' most of it. I am learing a lot of new names and terminology........l  hadn't thought too much about the precise definitions for parts of a tooth before .

So the expossed shiny tip portion of the tooth is dentin not enamel. 

 And it seems from your expert experience  that it is not Physeter, Kogiopsis or Scaldicetus. 

Shellseeker your are suggesting maybe California do you mean something like Aulophyseter morricei ?

Shellseeker l would love to find fossils in the wild, but unfortunately my area of New Zealand is not much blessed with them. I hope to move to the south island soon and l think that will be a better hunting ground.  There is a great youtuber that l sometimes watch who picks up wonderful concretions containing crabs on the beaches of the NE South Island.

Thanks again everyone for all your help.

Regards Sue 

 

 

Apologies, Sue..  I just was not very precise.

So the exposed shiny tip portion of the tooth is dentin not enamel. 

Not quite.  There are toothed whales and non_toothed (Baleen) whales.  The tooth whales have different types of teeth. Some of those teeth have a lot of enamel,  some have just  enamel on the tip, and some have no enamel.  Scaldicetus is an extinct genus of highly predatory macroraptorial sperm whale. It has quite a bit of enamel, see it's tooth above.

Description: Kogiopsis is a genus of Middle Miocene cetacean from the family Kogiidae.Kogiopsis had very long teeth, 3-12.7 centimetres (1.2-5.0 in) long, without root. These teeth are found mostly in Florida and South Carolina. It's teeth have no enamel, comprised primarily of Dentin with a covering of Cementum..

Think of this tooth... No shiny enamel.

 

Physeter is a genus of toothed whales. There is only one living species in this genus: the sperm whale.  Clearly the Sperm Whale of today has a tooth tipped with enamel,  and likely some of it's ancestors had more .

 

Here is a photo of Aulophyseter morricei from Shark Tooth Hill in Southern California. I do not think it has enamel but I am not an expert on California Marine Mammal teeth. @siteseer is likely to know. I referenced California based on the coloration on your tooth and that VERY interesting groove down the side..  Nothing to do with a specific species of whale.

 

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, Teddybear said:

Thanks again everyone for all your help.

Regards Sue 

Sue, 

You should read this thread...."Curiouser and curiouser!"....

So, I am forced to eat my words.... 

 

18 months ago ,  a good friend who worked in the Bone Valley Phosphate mines, offered to give/sell me some Whale teeth that he had collected while working in those mines in the 1970s and 1980s.... Unfortunately ,  it was never identified... Our resident whale expert identified it as Whale tooth indeterminate...

If you think it matches,  there is some good news.. you now have some provenance for your tooth, knowing where a very similar tooth came from... Phosphoria Mine,  Bone Valley, Mulberry , Florida found by my friend and hunting partner,  Steve

If you ever identify your Whale tooth,  let me know.   Jack

 

[Teddybear]

Hi Shellseeker,

I am a complete novice with this. I didn't realise until reading your last posts that the groove and the non oval base were unusual  !

There are definite similarities between your tooth and mine. Although mine has a less 'peas in a pod ' look.

I have tried a collage of the teeth , what do you think of them side by side ?

Sue

[Teddybear]

Hi,

I just made another discovery. Don't know if it makes a difference to any identification.  But this tooth is basically hollow. 

If you look at this next picture the wooden stick goes in as far as the red line .

Sue

[Mahnmut]

5 hours ago, Teddybear said:

Hi,

I just made another discovery. Don't know if it makes a difference to any identification.  But this tooth is basically hollow. 

If you look at this next picture the wooden stick goes in as far as the red line .

Sue

 

Hi again,

I am just speculating here, but in seal remains I made the observation that juveniles have hollow teeth (or very low mineralization inside the enamel cap) that turn solid with maturity,

 

On the other hand your tooth looks like it went trough some stages of growth (no idea what time interval the horizontal groves represent), not what I would expect from a juvenile.

I think the hollow part would have been to be embedded in the jaw, so that makes for a deep root relative to the tip.

Time to ask a whale expert?

Best Regards,

J

 

[Teddybear]

Hi Mahnmut,

Thank you for your new thoughts. ........ Hopefully a whale person will come  and give us some specialist knowledge on this .

Cheers

Sue

[Teddybear]

Hi Mahnmut,

I think you may be right. I just searched seal teeth and got these elephant seal teeth. The fist picture is of a southern elephant seal that was collected during the 1911 Mawson expedition to Antarctica.  It is in the Powerhouse museum in Sydney Australia. There is no size with this tooth.

The second picture is a group of Elephant seal teeth held by the Canterbury museum in New Zealand. The scale there indicates that they are up to about 10cm max. But there are strong similarities between my tooth and these pictures. Especially the first tooth picture.

 

It maybe local to me ......l am in New Zealand. 

 

Over the years there have been many scientific trips to Antarctica from New Zealand.  So possibly this is the source.  Or maybe even a local a NZ beach find ?

My last question would be about the age of my tooth. Is there anyway to decide if this tooth is a fossil ? Or just an old artifact.

 

I don't know if l am allowed to copy these photos so l am just including a 'rough' screen shot.

Thanks so much

Cheers

Sue

[Shellseeker]

21 hours ago, Teddybear said:

Hi Shellseeker,

I am a complete novice with this. I didn't realise until reading your last posts that the groove and the non oval base were unusual  !

There are definite similarities between your tooth and mine. Although mine has a less 'peas in a pod ' look.

I have tried a collage of the teeth , what do you think of them side by side ?

Sue

Sue,

I am stunned..  You say you are a Novice,  yet you found a fossil (YES , it is fossil , not modern) tooth  that few if any experts recognize... With the help of @Mahnmut, you track it down to an Elephant Seal tooth in the museums of New Zealand...

If you are capable of this as a novice,  what can we look for when you reach expert status?

 

Here are some modern Elephant Seal teeth... that deep groove is close to unique, those crinkly rings near the root, the open curly cue root cavity... The chances of your tooth NOT being Elephant Seal would seem, in my mind, to approach zero..

 

Here is a reference paper on Elephant seal remains from the Pliocene of New Zealand:  RW Boessenecker is our resident expert on fossil and extant Marine Mammals..  We need to wait on his evaluation.

 

@digit Ken , just in case , have we ever found and/or identified an Elephant Seal tooth from Bone Valley ?

 

 

Sue,  for the record, I think your tooth and my tooth came from the same mammal Genus....

[digit]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Ken , just in case , have we ever found and/or identified an Elephant Seal tooth from Bone Valley ?

Nope. We have a number of earless seals (family Phocidae) which includes the Elephant Seal (genus Mirounga) but the genera we have in the Florida fossil record are mostly in the genus Callophoca (extinct earless seals) and Neomonachus (monk seals).

 

I believe Bobby @Boesse has considerable knowledge of pinnipeds as well as cetaceans and has history and knowledge of the fossils of New Zealand. I'd trust implicitly anything he has to say on the matter.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Teddybear]

Hi Shellseeker, 

Wow , looks like we got it .Yay ! Those pictures you posted of the modern elephant seal teeth are so close that there can be very little doubt that my tooth is an elephant seal .

 

That it  is possibly  Pliocene New Zealand seal is absolutely amazing. 

 

I read the reference paper you listed, that is also fascinating.  I would love to have RW Boessenecker's opinion as to how close a relationship my  tooth has  to the skull he is examining in his paper.

My tooth has an old inventory number so it has been in  somebody's collection at some time in past.

 

Do l understand  digit 's reply  to mean that your tooth cannot be an elephant seal ?

 

Thank you for your kind words. I really hope that l will find some other interesting fossils in the future that could lead me on other interesting  "trails". 

 

This forum is such a wonderful place /resource.  Supported by a fantastic group of experts who are very generous with their knowledge and time.

 

Fingers crossed that @Boesse will confirm that my tooth is a NZ Pliocene elephant seal. 

Cheers everyone 

Sue

 

 

[Mahnmut]

Wow, glad I could help unknowingly!

I chose the pinnipeds as an example, having never seen a juvenile whale tooth. Even more accidental as your find seems not to be juvenile at all!

Good that it put you on the right track though!

Best Regards,

J

[digit]

7 hours ago, Teddybear said:

Do l understand  digit 's reply  to mean that your tooth cannot be an elephant seal ?

Yup. We have other seals from the Phocidae family but we have no fossils in the FLMNH collection from the genus that includes the elephant seals. I've seen Northern Elephant Seals at Año Nuevo State Park in California before--quite a treat! That species is limited to the cooler productive waters of the northeastern Pacific. The Southern Elephant Seal has a more circumpolar distribution. Here are maps of the two species' current ranges:

 

    

 

We once had the Caribbean Monk Seal but sadly we've driven this species to extinction with the last one seen in the wild just over 50 years ago. I don't think the warmer waters around Florida could have sustained the large bulk of an elephant seal with the amount of benthic invertebrates it would need to survive.

 

Here are some images from Año Nuevo back in 2016 for you all to enjoy.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

     

 

       

[digit]

7 hours ago, Teddybear said:

Thank you for your kind words. I really hope that l will find some other interesting fossils in the future that could lead me on other interesting  "trails". 

 

This forum is such a wonderful place /resource.  Supported by a fantastic group of experts who are very generous with their knowledge and time.

 

Fingers crossed that @Boesse will confirm that my tooth is a NZ Pliocene elephant seal. 

Bobby is a busy guy but he does check in here from time to time and we rely on him as a subject expert for a lot of the marine mammal stuff. It's nice to have some professional paleontologists mixed in among the largely avocational fossil hunters that make up this forum. As you have noticed many of us "amateurs" get pretty deep in our knowledge of our favorite fossil types and we do enjoy sharing our accumulated knowledge to bring others up the learning curve. We're looking forward to your next interesting fossil from the beautiful country of Aotearoa, the land of the long white cloud.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Teddybear]

Hello everyone, 

Mahnmut you helped enormously.  If you hadn't mentioned seals l would never have thought to look in that direction.

I must admit that when you did l was a little bit disappointed because somehow a sperm whale sounds more interesting than  a seal !!.  But after reading RW Boessenecker 's paper on the NZ Pliocene Elephant seal skull,   l  learned the fact that that NZ skull  played an important part in  establishing  the evolutionary line for elephant seals. So l came to realise that my seal tooth is probably scarcer  and more interesting than a sperm whale tooth !

Digit, thanks for the extra information.  I love this forum and can spend hours here reading and learning.

If l could ask another question.......l realise that fossils tend to take their colouration from the minerals in the matrix surrounding them. So from this fact could l consider that my tooth (being brownish)  is more likely to of have originated in the ground in New Zealand rather than Antarctica ?  I am saying this considering that the example from Antarctica in The Powerhouse museum is a  much whiter colour ? Or is that too simplistic ?

Thanks for everything  and good evening from NZ.

Sue

[mamlambo]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:52 AM, Teddybear said:

 

 

Shellseeker l would love to find fossils in the wild, but unfortunately my area of New Zealand is not much blessed with them. I hope to move to the south island soon and l think that will be a better hunting ground.  There is a great youtuber that l sometimes watch who picks up wonderful concretions containing crabs on the beaches of the NE South Island.

 

 

 

If you private message me your general location, I might know of a few spots close to where you are based 

Edited May 22, 2023 by mamlambo

[digit]

6 hours ago, Teddybear said:

If l could ask another question.......l realise that fossils tend to take their colouration from the minerals in the matrix surrounding them. So from this fact could l consider that my tooth (being brownish)  is more likely to of have originated in the ground in New Zealand rather than Antarctica ?  I am saying this considering that the example from Antarctica in The Powerhouse museum is a  much whiter colour ? Or is that too simplistic ?

On the surface too simplistic but you have it correct that the minerals in the matrix where a fossil is buried and mineralized very much have an effect on the coloration or colouration. I'm guessing that you don't have good provenance on where this tooth was found but it does seem more likely that it was discovered in NZ if that is where it came into your possession. Given the rise and fall of ocean levels as the temperatures warmed and cooled over recent geologic time, it is not unreasonable to think that there were rocky beaches on Antarctica where Southern Elephant Seals hauled up from time to time. Are the Powerhouse Museum specimens fossilized or more modern? More modern teeth would not have been subject to a mineralization process that would have darkened the toothy white.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Boesse]

Hey all - I actually think this is likely to be a canine from an elephant seal.

 

[Teddybear]

Thanks  @Boesse for replying. This is a picture of my tooth. The other light coloured one is the Powerhouse museum example.

Is this an elephant seal tooth fossil. It comes from New Zealand. 

Thanks

Sue