johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 Also found this bone the other day which I think is a camelid distal metatarsal? It's completely mineralized and would shatter if dropped. Very brittle. But I was wondering... does anyone feel as torn as I do when I try to clean these things up and you take off the matrix... the color underneath just doesn't match to what's been exposed for so long?? I do want to see the complete bone minus the matrix and crusty stuff... but dang the color difference bothers me. Oh well. So is it camelid? I did find one that seemed similar a while back. Sorry for the poor images. Included one where I was getting the clay material from between the condyles so the color differences can be seen. That crust is solid. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorne Ledger Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 Very nice Johnny, likely camelops sp.. Looks a bit too big for palaeolama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 29, 2023 Author Share Posted May 29, 2023 Thanks @Lorne Ledger. Could this other bone from a much earlier post be a camelops sp. as well? It too is completely mineralized and brittle. Very heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorne Ledger Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 It could be yes. Get a measurement across the distal end please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 This is a camelid distal metapodial. I'd guess it is a lamine camelid, based on size. It is much easier to identify metacarpal from metatarsal using the proximal end of the bone (as I did for this image). For comparison: 3 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 29, 2023 Author Share Posted May 29, 2023 (edited) @Lorne Ledger @Harry Pristis This is 64.25 mm across for subject bone... not this specimen from an earlier post. Harry... I saw some of your other posts using the word "lamine" because I couldn't find it elsewhere. So it means that camelids from the Pleistocene are lamine (llamas) camels? Were llamas and camels the same or was a llama considered a smaller camel? Edited May 30, 2023 by johnnyvaldez7.jv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 It's the Tribe LAMINI (of the Subfamily CAMELINAE of the Family CAMELIDAE) which does contain llamas . . . but, in Florida the only lamines are Paleolama and Hemiauchenia. Camelops is not found in Florida, though there are other earlier, large camelids, among the Tribe CAMELINI for example. 2 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilus Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 I'm looking at "The osteology of camelops" Webb, in the description of the metacarpus and metatarsus it doesn't mention any differences with the llamas, just camelus differences. Also, there are overlaps in the sizes of the proximal phalanges between camelops and the llamas. (You can only tell them apart by tendon attachments.) Bottom line is that you probably can't tell if this is camelops or llama. There are large differences in the teeth and cervical vertebrae, camelops and llama. The metas though, probably not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 I found this citation interesting: Morphological phylogenies have predominantly assigned Camelops to the Lamini clade (Harrison 1979;Honey et al. 1998;Scherer 2013), but recently novel proteomic (Buckley et al. 2019) and genetic (Heintzman et al. 2015) studies indicated a closer connection between this genus and the Camelini. ... 3 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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