Tony Eaton Posted July 25, 2010 Share Posted July 25, 2010 (edited) I'm recycling some content from a prior post to cobble together a quick, non technical guide to ID Ptychodus teeth. Many of the pictures below are from CreekCrawler. A few terms: transverse ridges = the lines going across the tooth crown = the abrasive "eating" surface of the tooth margin = the area around the crown above the root flat crowned, from oldest to youngest: Ptychodus decurrens low crown with ridges that split (bifurcate) to the end of the marginal area Ptychodus marginalis (polygyrus) crown only moderately raised ridges circle crown at marginal area and margin has a circular "finger print" pattern unlike decurrens Ptychodus latissimus few, thick, "sharp" ridges on the low crown little marginal area Ptychodus martini very low crown, unlike decurrens and marginalis the marginal area is rough or non existent and has no discernable pattern more ridges and generally more rectangular compared to litissimus high crowned, oldest to newest: Ptychodus anonymus small in general 10+ ridges rough margin crown lower than whipplei and more rounded than mammillaris Ptychodus occidentalis gently curved high crown at a slight angle to margin unlike mammillaris 10+ fine ridges ridges branch into the marginal area unlike anonymous Ptychodus mammillaris crown attached at a steep angle to the marginal area unlike occidentalis ridges are course and crown wider/squarer than anonymous marginal area has a circular pattern around the crown Ptychodus whipplei very high crowned, peg like transverse ridges generally do not extend to the margin Ptychodus mortoni the crown is pointed with ridges running together meeting at a single point at the top of the crown Ptychodus atcoensis (sp.) front to back (labial to lengual) median line thick ridges that form a "chevron" pattern recenly named by Shawn Hamm, previously Ptychodus sp. Ptychodus rugosus most rare Ptychodus at least in Texas, no pictures to post ;-) transverse ridges are rough and poorly defined, almost giving the ridges a heavily "rusted" outline Orginal post with some other great picks from kknight. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php/topic/14366-ptychodus-occidentalis/ Edited July 29, 2010 by Tony Eaton 24 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefootgirl Posted July 25, 2010 Share Posted July 25, 2010 Thank you so much for this. We should pin this. 1 1 In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest N.AL.hunter Posted July 25, 2010 Share Posted July 25, 2010 Great guide. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 That is a nice guide - great photos. The only information I would add would be the formations/sites each of the species is known from. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 Good work, Tony and Barry. I once wanted to do something like this for the resident species of Salenia echinoids in Texas. You have assimilated something useful beyond state boundaries. I also agree it would be good to include the formation, age, or period typical for each species.... 1 The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hieronymus Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 Interesting! But personally, I don't see many differences (if any) between anonymous and mammillaris. Can you point the differences out with more detail? I can't really remember, but don't some authors consider anonymous and mammilaris as nomen dubium, resulting in one species, namely mammillaris? I'm not at home right now so I can't check any sources. 2 http://rhaetianlorraine.webs.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Eaton Posted July 27, 2010 Author Share Posted July 27, 2010 (edited) Hieronymus, thanks for the feedback. I enjoy the debate :-) I have just taken a picture that might be a better diagnostic example. Here is a picture of 2 teeth roughly the same size from the same site (middle Turonian, Kamp Ranch Fm., Denton Co.) The tooth on the left is mammilaris, the one on the right anonymous. They have more or the same margin design and same ridge count, but the difference is that mammilaris is much more squared off (flat) at the top of the crown. I have several teeth that are less clear cut and seem to be variations between mammilaris, anonymous, and even a bit like mortoni or atcoensis. The picture of anonymous in my post above includes a tooth, (second tooth on the bottom left) that I might consider mammilaris judging by just that picture. In the pictures I included originally of mammilaris, the tooth on the right has a flat crown, but it is more narrow compared to most "mammilaris" that I've collected and at the angle I picked it is not clear. Here is another view where the flat crown is more obvious. Unless I saw a naturally associated tooth set that showed morphology of both the flat and rounded crowns I would not agree that anonymous is a nomen dubium (doubtful name). Edited July 27, 2010 by Tony Eaton 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Eaton Posted July 27, 2010 Author Share Posted July 27, 2010 (edited) Regarding adding more info, to do it right I'd need to drive to a University Library and get access to some work (namely Shawn Hamm's master's thesis). I have a number of articles and websites I'll use to ID Ptychodus, but my two "go to" sources: http://www.texassharks.org/ http://www.dallaspaleo.org/dpsstorepubs.htm (DPS volume 8) Edited July 27, 2010 by Tony Eaton 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Hi, Thanks for this very interesting subject. But I ask a question : did not Ptychodus have different teeth forms according to their place in the mouth ? Coco 1 ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Hi, Thanks for this very interesting subject. But I ask a question : did not Ptychodus have different teeth forms according to their place in the mouth ? Coco Thank you, 'Coco'. Yes, of course, there are positional variations and individual variations and perhaps variations over time. Those variations make the ID of a single tooth or even a handful of these teeth such a dicey game. But, it's a game that's entertaining. A few people actually make a living at museums playing this game. And, it keeps some of us collectors out of the juke joints. 2 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Eaton Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Yah, fossil collecting is healthy living provided I ignore any temptation to trespass LOL. Coco, there is heterodonty in Ptychodus, most notable with symphysials that are sometimes quite odd, but the outer files or posterior teeth can also be tricky. However, these teeth are easy to single out and none are pictured above. Most Ptychodus toothsets I've seen pictured the teeth are very similar to each other, especially the general features of the marginal pattern. The Oceans of Kansas site details a few toothsets. http://www.oceansofkansas.com/Ptychodus.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hieronymus Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 On 7/26/2010 at 9:31 PM, Tony Eaton said: Hieronymus, thanks for the feedback. I enjoy the debate :-) I have just taken a picture that might be a better diagnostic example. Here is a picture of 2 teeth roughly the same size from the same site (middle Turonian, Kamp Ranch Fm., Denton Co.) http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/4832923794_a3411304c6.jpg The tooth on the left is mammilaris, the one on the right anonymous. They have more or the same margin design and same ridge count, but the difference is that mammilaris is much more squared off (flat) at the top of the crown. I have several teeth that are less clear cut and seem to be variations between mammilaris, anonymous, and even a bit like mortoni or atcoensis. The picture of anonymous in my post above includes a tooth, (second tooth on the bottom left) that I might consider mammilaris judging by just that picture. In the pictures I included originally of mammilaris, the tooth on the right has a flat crown, but it is more narrow compared to most "mammilaris" that I've collected and at the angle I picked it is not clear. Here is another view where the flat crown is more obvious. http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4120/4807277936_b20c76427d_m.jpg Unless I saw a naturally associated tooth set that showed morphology of both the flat and rounded crowns I would not agree that anonymous is a nomen dubium (doubtful name). Thank you for the explanation! I'm going to wrestle trough my literature a little bit more now:-) 1 http://rhaetianlorraine.webs.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Thankyou, that's a great job 1 http://www.mbfossilcrabs.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Hi, I like this file ! Thanks for this very interesting link. All your teeth are nice, and it is marvelous to see plate jaws of this shark. Many thanks. Coco 1 ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) I'm bumping this great thread because someone just asked about a Ptychodus ID. The additional notes on mammilaris vs. anonymus are a cool bonus. For anyone who has picked up - whether in the field or through trades - a variety of Ptychodus teeth from various sites/ages, this is the guide you hoped existed somewhere. Jess Yah, fossil collecting is healthy living provided I ignore any temptation to trespass LOL.Coco, there is heterodonty in Ptychodus, most notable with symphysials that are sometimes quite odd, but the outer files or posterior teeth can also be tricky. However, these teeth are easy to single out and none are pictured above. Most Ptychodus toothsets I've seen pictured the teeth are very similar to each other, especially the general features of the marginal pattern. The Oceans of Kansas site details a few toothsets. http://www.oceansofkansas.com/Ptychodus.html Edited September 9, 2013 by siteseer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truceburner Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I recall someone on this forum mentioning a reclassification of Ptychodus teeth was forthcoming. Does anyone know whether this has been published? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Siphuncle Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The closest reference I've seen is Systematic, Stratigraphic, Geographic and Paleocological Distribution of the Late Cretaceous Shark Genus Ptychodus within the Western Interior Seaway, Hamm (2008). I think this was his Masters thesis. I happen to have a hard copy of this 400+ page magnum opus in my library. 1 Grüße, Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas "To the motivated go the spoils." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie78 Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Just want to thank you for posting this. I think I've IDed this as a ptychodus mortoni thanks to this guide. Cheers ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSCHNELLE Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Tony, thanks for your post. My wife found a complete 1.5 cm wide ptychodus in Walnut Creek metropolitan Park in Austin. The ridges are highly bifurcated as you drop from the crown to the margin. A British website pic says that crowns on P. decurrens are generally flat but can be bulbous (with higher ridge?). They also have a decurrens pic that looks more like the tooth she found. Is that your understanding as well? See pics. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSCHNELLE Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Two more pics. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 That tooth has a rather high, more bulbous crown than decurrens (which I still like calling P. decurrens) so I think it's P. occidentalis, which is an uncommon species for its time. Two more pics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilobolus Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 http://www.elasmo.com/refs/pdf/hamm2008-ptychodusMS.pdf 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Eaton Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 I recall someone on this forum mentioning a reclassification of Ptychodus teeth was forthcoming. Does anyone know whether this has been published? I'm not too sure as I haven't reviewed the latest work in the last few years. Paraptychodus washitaensis and Ptychodus rhombodus are two "new" species that need some attention. P. washitaensis is a tiny raisin like tooth from the lower Cretaceous that is rare. P. rhombodus is also a small tooth from the middle Cenomanian but has been lumped in with other species. I'll try to post pics from my collection when I get a chance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Eaton Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) Here are some pics of Ptychodus rhombodus that turn up in the Woodbine / Eagleford contact zones (Middle Cenomanian) in Texas. Very similar to P. decurrens except for the quick transitioned "speed bump" labial to lengual crown. P. decurrens has a more evenly rounded crown. P. rhombodus is like P. anonymus but occurs earlier (sometimes just feet below) P. anonymus and lacks the more developed marginal area (more elaborately textured sides) of P. anonymus. P. rhombodus also has a lower crown compared to P. anonymus although some teeth seem to be "in between". The tooth is named for the rhombic outline which combined with the "speed bump" crown and the "primitive" decurrens like ridge patterns warranted this tooth being designated it's own species (Underwood / Cumbaa 2009). I have collected several additional teeth that seem to be between P. rhombodus and P. anonymous and may simply get lumped in with P. decurrens? Edited July 3, 2016 by Tony Eaton 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Eaton Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) A broken Paraptychodus washitaensis from the Duck Creek Fm. lower Cretaceous. This is less than 1cm in length. Note the raisin like appearance of the crown with a more primitive enamel design comparable to Ptychodus decurrens. Also, note how thin the enamel is compared to typical broken Ptychodus teeth. Some tooth positions lack multiple transverse ridges and have a hybodont like pointed crown. Perhaps if this tooth where whole the crown (top) would come to a single point more like other shark teeth? See recent publications from Shawn Hamm who had named the Genus and Species i.e Hamm 2008. Edited July 3, 2016 by Tony Eaton 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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