Early Miocene Astragalus From Nj

[non-remanié]

Well, Steve, I confess that I eliminated rhino because I perceived your astragalus to be larger than it actually is.

I just posted a comment to your gallery image of the group of fossils. Now that I can see the astragalus with rhino teeth and the image here of the bone in your hand, I think it is likely that you have a Menoceras astragalus. I have more than a few here, and I'll be posting an image or two.

This is just the sort of thing that happens when all you have is an image.

I have the original paper describing Ammodon from NJ, no doubt from the formation you're working. I got the paper because I found some entelodont material here in Florida.

---Harry Pristis

Here you go! Yes I also have Leidy's original paper describing ammodon as well. Unfortunately I have not been able to find any complete entelodont molars from the site even though in a recent paper describing the entire land mammal assemblage it is said that entelodont is the most common in the deposit. (Reference provided upon request if anyone wants)

I have read that entelodont teeth are very rare in Florida, but sometimes you find other bones? Is that accurate?

I have issues with proper scale as well. I never liked the coin in the pic thing much but I tried that for these astragalus images. I always have liked the fossil (usually sharks tooth) in hand pictures for getting an accurate gauge of the size right away, but they are ugly, especially when cropped

-steve

[non-remanié]

Toothpuller,

You have some beautiful mammal fossils posted in the gallery and in this thread. The discussion in this thread has been

very informative. A difference of opinion can be a positive force broadening the discussion and enlightening the members

of the Forum, if respect and civility is kept. I think it was in this case and I hope it will remain so. This board is a true

treasure!

-greel

Thanks greel! I will tell you... they did not come easy. 100s of hours of heavy digging to find those few! But there haven't been many at all found in NJ, so it was worth it. I must say I still am a bit jealous of all the beautiful big teeth you have been finding further south. :> I have lurked ECFC for a while now. Even though the discussion got a little heated here, it was definitely informative. In fact, we all probably end up learning more from these heated discussions.

[Harry Pristis]

Here you go! Yes I also have Leidy's original paper describing ammodon as well. Unfortunately I have not been able to find any complete entelodont molars from the site even though in a recent paper describing the entire land mammal assemblage it is said that entelodont is the most common in the deposit. (Reference provided upon request if anyone wants)

I have read that entelodont teeth are very rare in Florida, but sometimes you find other bones? Is that accurate?

I have issues with proper scale as well. I never liked the coin in the pic thing much but I tried that for these astragalus images. I always have liked the fossil (usually sharks tooth) in hand pictures for getting an accurate gauge of the size right away, but they are ugly, especially when cropped

-steve

Okay, Steve. I think your black rhino tooth is a lot bigger than the Menoceras sp. teeth that we find down here unless you have a really small hand! The cingulum on your tooth is right for Menoceras (it's not present in the later and larger Teleoceras). I'm not sure what larger rhinos might be in your NJ fauna.

The astragalus in your hand also looks larger than I anticipated, which is not incongruous if this is in fact a scaled-up Menoceras. But, size apart, here are four more rhino astragali for comparison. Some of these have been damaged by bites from (most likely) bear-dogs.

Entelodont material is super-rare! I still have some things here. There is an image of an entelodont astragalus in my BONES album.

-----Harry Pristis

[Harry Pristis]

Okay, Steve. I think your black rhino tooth is a lot bigger than the Menoceras sp. teeth that we find down here unless you have a really small hand! The cingulum on your tooth is right for Menoceras (it's not present in the later and larger Teleoceras). I'm not sure what larger rhinos might be in your NJ fauna.

<snip>

-----Harry Pristis

For comparison:

[non-remanié]

Harry those Menoceras astragali look very close, especially the shape of the pulley articulation and the “lip”. The other features you pointed to in previous images such as the "shoulder" on the underside all look to have the right shape and proportions as well. I think this is definitely the closest match so far!!

Table scanned from:

Proceedings of... Geological Association of New Jersey vol. XII: Contributions to the Paleontology of New Jersey (1995) --- "Miocene Land Mammals from the Kirkwood Formation of Monmouth County, NJ" (William B. Gallagher, David C. Parris, Edward J. Gilmore & Barbara S. Grandstaff)

Everything not labeled as residing in a private collection was found in the 1800s by Leidy, Marsh, and others from greensand marl pits. The names are possibly out of date as a result. Most of the rhino material is referred to as various Diceratherium species, but the paper seems to imply most might be referable to D. matutinum. Considering another reference, the teeth might be representative of Menoceras. [[[THE EARLY HEMINGFORDIAN (EARLY MIOCENE) POLLACK FARM LOCAL FAUNA: FIRST TERTIARY LAND MAMMALS DESCRIBED FROM DELAWARE available as pdf here http://www.deldot.gov/archaeology/pollack/index.shtml ]]]

The lower Calvert formation in which the Pollack Farm Site is located is fairly close in age to the Kirkwood fm. material I am collecting in NJ. ~18mya compared to ~21mya, but that does seem to cross the NAMLA from Arikareean to Hemingfordian. But I do NOT want to get back into NAMLAs According to Gallagher et al's GANJ paper, the land mammal fauna is somewhat equivocal with some species more referable to the Arikareean, some Hemingfordian. And that it is possible that the land mammal remains were transported from a fluvial system which may have sampled and recycled stream bank stored remains during high erosion events into the estaurine depositional environment of the lag deposit at the base of the Asbury Park member of the Kirkwood fm in which these fossils were recovered from.

The rhino teeth I have from the site do seem larger than Menoceras from Florida (Hulbert & internet & Harry’s) and slightly larger than Menoceras? teeth from Delaware.

Wow I just for the first time noticed that there is actually a rhino astragalus listed from NJ in the table! I never caught that before. I guess I have a good comparison specimen available. But I still do not know if Diceratherium is correct at all for the rhino teeth since the IDs of Diceratherium are from the 1800s. A much less speculative ID is given to the 3 recent rhino finds that reside in private collections; they are either listed as indeterminate rhino or tentatively Diceratherium.

According to the paleobiology database:

Diceratherium armatum = Rhinoceras matutinus = D. matutinum.

http://paleodb.org/cgi-bin/bridge.pl?actio...;is_real_user=1

D. cooki is listed as a subjective synonym of Menoceras arikarense

http://paleodb.org/cgi-bin/bridge.pl?actio...;is_real_user=1

One more note, I see that the tapir specimens from the Kirkwood fm. are all listed as being from Shiloh. This is a completely different site than everything else on the list. It is also from a different member of the Kirkwood fm. which is probably considerably younger than the Asbury Park member I have been collecting. This may also be somewhat indicative that it is likely not to be a tapir astragalus. According to personal communications, the list is fairly exhaustive.

-steve

[Fruitbat]

Gadzooks! I think Harry's done it! I had initially ruled out any of the rhinos because all of the rhino astragali I have are much more robust that the one that started this whole discussion. Since the astragalus in question just didn't appear to be equid, the only thing I could find that it closely resembled was a tapir. Harry's Menoceras pictures, however, seem to fit the bill almost perfectly. Kudos to Harry for unraveling the mystery of the Miocene astragalus.

-Joe

[Harry Pristis]

Harry those Menoceras astragali look very close, especially the shape of the pulley articulation and the “lip”. The other features you pointed to in previous images such as the "shoulder" on the underside all look to have the right shape and proportions as well. I think this is definitely the closest match so far!!

Table scanned from:

Proceedings of... Geological Association of New Jersey vol. XII: Contributions to the Paleontology of New Jersey (1995) --- "Miocene Land Mammals from the Kirkwood Formation of Monmouth County, NJ" (William B. Gallagher, David C. Parris, Edward J. Gilmore & Barbara S. Grandstaff)

That's great, Steve! I am pleased to discover someone working an Arikareean/Hemingfordian site, finding fossils similar to things I have collected.

I have gathered up all the Arikareean/Hemingfordian papers I can reasonably find, many of them dealing with western sites. I'd love to have a copy of this NJ paper, but it seems to be unavailble from the GANJ web-site -- not even a PDF. Is there any way to acquire this paper as other than a photo-copy?

----Harry Pristis

[Harry Pristis]

That's great, Steve! I am pleased to discover someone working an Arikareean/Hemingfordian site, finding fossils similar to things I have collected.

----Harry Pristis

Menoceras cf. M. arikarense

[non-remanié]

That's great, Steve! I am pleased to discover someone working an Arikareean/Hemingfordian site, finding fossils similar to things I have collected.

I have gathered up all the Arikareean/Hemingfordian papers I can reasonably find, many of them dealing with western sites. I'd love to have a copy of this NJ paper, but it seems to be unavailble from the GANJ web-site -- not even a PDF. Is there any way to acquire this paper as other than a photo-copy?

----Harry Pristis

The original GANJ guidebook XII that contains the article is available for purchase but not for pdf download through their website. http://shop.ganj.org/product.sc?productId=...mp;categoryId=4

Or I can send you a copy of the article if you'd like. It really is just a short description documenting the finds. It's no problem running off a copy for ya. Send me a msg with your contact info if that sounds good.

-steve

[non-remanié]

Menoceras cf. M. arikarense

That sure is impressive!!! The teeth look a lot like mine with the cingulum. I think one of mine is a lower deciduous p3. Is it right to assume the lower crown height would be a good indicator of a dp? I'm not sure about the other. That is an adult specimen, correct?

[Harry Pristis]

That sure is impressive!!! The teeth look a lot like mine with the cingulum. I think one of mine is a lower deciduous p3. Is it right to assume the lower crown height would be a good indicator of a dp? I'm not sure about the other. That is an adult specimen, correct?

It's a young adult male, Steve; the third molar is just emerging from the crypt. The canines had not yet fully emerged, either -- that was a choice of the museum preparator that finished the jaw for me.

I can help you with illustrations of rhino parts, including the teeth and even the deciduous teeth. They are in plates in a big ole' book 13" x 10" that will take some careful scanning. I don't want to damage this 88 year old volume. It's in MEMOIRS OF THE CARNEGIE MUSEUM VOLUME VII 1919-1920. Perhaps you alread have it.

Those illustrations have been invaluable to me.

-------Harry Pristis

[RichW9090]

Anchitherium is known from the Miocene of NJ - one specimen, I think, in the AMNH - maybe donated by Ralph Johnson? From the Farmingdale Fauna. He also donated the cf. Prosynthetoceras tooth and a specimen of the rhino Menoceras.

Don't confuse "horse" with "Equus". There are lots of horses which are not Equus.

Edited April 22, 2014 by RichW9090

[siteseer]

Jpevahouse,

I don't know who is questioning the age of the earliest horse fossils in Florida, but there are definite Late Miocene, Middle Miocene, Early Miocene, and even Oligocene specimens from there. I have seen Mesohippus teeth from Florida and that genus is known from only Late Eocene to Early Miocene sites (best known perhaps from the Early Oligocene) elsewhere in North America. Miocene horses such as Parahippus, Anchitherium, Merychippus, and Neohipparion are also known from Florida.

Even in Florida, which seems to have more horse fossils than any place in the US, experts argue that the earliest are late Pliocene.