non-remanié Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 My best efforts have led me to possibly Creodont, maybe something like Hyaenodon. Dave Parris of the NJSM told me it is very difficult to ID these premolars, but any optinions are welcomed. This is probably early Miocene but check my recent thread on the "unidentifued perissodactyl astragalus" for more age information: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?sh...p;hl=astragalus -steve I have also added some other images of miocene land mammal fossils recovered from the same deposit into my gallery. ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorman Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Very interesting tooth, would love to have it in my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 My best efforts have led me to possibly Creodont, maybe something like Hyaenodon. Dave Parris of the NJSM told me it is very difficult to ID these premolars, but any optinions are welcomed. This is probably early Miocene but check my recent thread on the "unidentifued perissodactyl astragalus" for more age information: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?sh...p;hl=astragalus-steve I have also added some other images of miocene land mammal fossils recovered from the same deposit into my gallery. Nice find, Steve! Carnivores have been my focus for a long time. I don't think this is a Miocene tooth. We don't get Creodonts here in Florida 'cause everything was under water in the Late Eocene. North American creodonts didn't survive the Eocene, as I understand it. Could be from a machairoidine hyaenodont, a group restricted to the Late Eocene of North America; but, that's just a bookish guess. Surely, this is an identifiable tooth. Why don't you make some casts of it and send the casts to various museum workers. There's a group of carnivore guys at the Smithsonian, for example. Making the casts would be simple enough. ---------Harry Pristis http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted April 29, 2008 Author Share Posted April 29, 2008 Nice find, Steve! Carnivores have been my focus for a long time. I don't think this is a Miocene tooth. We don't get Creodonts here in Florida 'cause everything was under water in the Late Eocene. North American creodonts didn't survive the Eocene, as I understand it. Could be from a machairoidine hyaenodont, a group restricted to the Late Eocene of North America; but, that's just a bookish guess. Surely, this is an identifiable tooth. Why don't you make some casts of it and send the casts to various museum workers. There's a group of carnivore guys at the Smithsonian, for example. Making the casts would be simple enough. ---------Harry Pristis This could well be Eocene. There is one report of an Eocene tillodont mammal, Anchippodus riparius (Leidy 1868), as well as Eocene birds, from a nearby locality which is likely from the same lag deposit or directly from the Eocene Shark River or Manasquan formations. (In some places the Kirkwood lag rests on the Eocene Manasquan fm. rather than the Shark River fm.) The lag obviously contains Eocene sharks teeth so any land mammal material in the Eocene formation could be just as likely worked into the lag at the base of the Kirkwood fm. This specimen was unfortunately found as float, but the preservation is the same as material from the lag deposit. The underside exhibits pyritization as is common in the lag and the same on all of my land mammal teeth from the lag. All of my (and my buddy's) land mammal finds from the site will be reported once we are done with collecting. We have already significantly increased upon the handful of previously reported remains. Casts and further research for the paper will be made when the time comes. I will probably have to work with the Smithsonian as you suggest. I have already been in contact with a few people there related to other marine finds (dugong, protocetid archaeocete). Just to clarify, your best guess right now would be that it is Eocene and from a machairoidine hyaenodont? And probably not Miocene? -steve ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 This could well be Eocene. <snip> Just to clarify, your best guess right now would be that it is Eocene and from a machairoidine hyaenodont? And probably not Miocene? -steve Well, let's say I have a representative collection of the big Florida Early Miocene carnivores, and your tooth does not seem to fit any of them. It does not appear to be ursid or amphicyonid. Canids were still small, and the tooth seems quite unlike a canid tooth. Your tooth is alien to my experience here in Florida, but maybe there was something strange in the Arikareean of NJ. I don't have a good guide to creodont teeth, but that is the direction in which I would be looking. And creodont would be Eocene, I read. --------Harry Pristis http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted April 29, 2008 Author Share Posted April 29, 2008 Well, let's say I have a representative collection of the big Florida Early Miocene carnivores, and your tooth does not seem to fit any of them. It does not appear to be ursid or amphicyonid. Canids were still small, and the tooth seems quite unlike a canid tooth. Your tooth is alien to my experience here in Florida, but maybe there was something strange in the Arikareean of NJ. I don't have a good guide to creodont teeth, but that is the direction in which I would be looking. And creodont would be Eocene, I read. --------Harry Pristis Well I really was not sure it couldn't have been Miocene, so thanks for (mostly) eliminating that possibility! I was not aware that creodonts did not survive the Eocene in North America. Creodont will be my direction of research unless someone else offers a different opinion. -steve ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 That looks like a peccary premolar to me. That would fit with an Early Miocene age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 20 hours ago, siteseer said: That looks like a peccary premolar to me. That would fit with an Early Miocene age. I do see the gross similarity to peccary lower premolars. Early Miocene tayassuids from Florida are not well known. Can you refer it to a NJ species? I would point out that the mystery tooth has a secant talonid, unlike Prosthenops (Middle Miocene) premolars. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 The Miocene peccary teeth from NJ have generally been referred to Hesperhys antiquus, but there may be more than one species. But a few people have IDed this tooth as an unerupted modern juvenile pig p3? i believe. From what i could gather that looked like a decent match. Do you agree? ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Steve . . . When you say "juvenile pig p3" do you mean a deciduous tooth? I don't have a good image of pig deciduous teeth. The size of your tooth is about right for a pig p3, but the morphology doesn't seem to fit. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanDye Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Could I see the bottom of the tooth I noticed that side was never displayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 6 hours ago, Ryan Dye said: Could I see the bottom of the tooth I noticed that side was never displayed. Ryan, Bottom views are not generally diagnostic for mammal teeth. 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanDye Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I was just curious as well as if the ID is discovered I can reference it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 Harry, I guess what was meant was that the tooth was still in the jaw cavity when the animal died, so I guess that would make it an unerupted adult tooth, not the deciduous. I never was able to confirm what I was told but two well published PhDs had at that point each independently said piggy. Some other images of recent pig teeth looked like it was possible but I never saw a perfect match. I was quite a bit surprised that this tooth might not be from the fossiliferous Miocene (or maybe Eocene) formation, but both these PhDs seemed quite confident saying piggy. After showing it to many people previously without any solid opinions, I dropped it there. I could definitely buy Miocene peccary if that looks like a better match to you guys and/or you think Sus scrofa is impossible. ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 I don't think it's suid. That is all I can say with any confidence. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 Could some new pics be useful or are the old ones good enough? This tooth has always been such a difficult mystery. I thought it was probably over, but I trust your opinion here. I guess it continues! ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanDye Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 17 minutes ago, non-remanié said: Could some new pics be useful or are the old ones good enough? This tooth has always been such a difficult mystery. I thought it was probably over, but I trust your opinion here. I guess it continues! This is purely a guess from some research I did I'm not saying this is confirmed in any way but could it possibly be a Ursidae? Just throwing around some ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 On 7/20/2017 at 9:33 PM, non-remanié said: Could some new pics be useful or are the old ones good enough? This tooth has always been such a difficult mystery. I thought it was probably over, but I trust your opinion here. I guess it continues! I don't see pig there either. PhD's have been wrong before. I keep seeing early peccary and it would be in the size range. However, assuming an Early Miocene age, another possibility would be an anthracothere, some members of which would have teeth similar to a peccary. North American anthracothere finds are rare (best-known from the Oligocene though remains are uncommon - rare from the Early Miocene) but I've seen some. Years ago at work, someone said "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war." The PhD among us declared that the line came from "Star Trek". A lesser-educated co-worker commented that it was actually from "Julius Caesar." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 Absolutely no need to tell me, Jess! I have heard more ridiculous and absolutely incorrect theories from one of the two than ive probably heard from any one avocational collector. I just was trying to give reasonable weight to their opinions, rather than saying the pig opinion was from "my friend jim". (; ill look into anthracotheres and peccaries. Maybe I have to find and email the Miocene peccary expert of paleo out there, whoever that may be... ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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