Elaphe Pantherophis Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Looking for opinions on this fossil, (open to pos. or neg. so feel free to be honest ) I bought a few years ago before I knew better. I was searching this site last night and found that quite a few of these considered fakes... I also learned that they shouldn't be purchased from Ebay or directly from Chinese vendors for that matter. Guess where I got this one? Yep, from a Chinese vendor on Ebay, but I think I may have lucked out, while I haven't done the hot needle test yet...I have spent some time looking at Native American artifacts and have a pretty good eye for determining fakes, although I realize that's a different ballpark, this looks "good" to my semi-untrained eye. Decent relief ( I tried for a good shot of that), bones are detailed and rounded with some pretty minuscule detailing. If it's fake it's a helluva job. What would be the best way to try to re-prepare this if it is indeed authentic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaphe Pantherophis Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) also if you notice in the picture of the full piece, it's been broken and the bottom corner is re-glued, but what's interesting is that there is a small portion of the end-tail of another Keich. in the upper left half of the fossil. I also know one 'bad' against it is the pose, pretty standard for fakes... Oh the piece is approx. 9 1/2" and the length of the Keich. is 5 1/2" Edited January 2, 2011 by Elaphe Pantherophis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 On one hand, there is a lot of detail in those bones that I can see well. On the other, there is, surrounding areas of the skeleton, some lighter colored material that looks less like matrix revealed and more like filler added. Overall, this suggests to me that it may be genuine, but with some heavy restoration. It looks better than some over-prepped ones I've seen lately. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Hi and Welcome to TFF from Oregon! Your Keichousaur looks like a very nice fossil! It has the typical preservation expected from the Chinese dealers. They're generally roughed out rapidly and landscaped with a wire wheel. Yours looks like it was given extra attention as it retains some bone structure and 3D preservation. I did notice a bit of paint on a few digits and ribs but it's not egregious in any way. Although you didn't mention it, I'm guessing this was in the $100 price range? If you ever decide to high grade up, check out this magnificent KEICH! Thanks again for sharing it with us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 It's a genuine fossil, no doubt about it. Prepped with a wire wheel, as most of them are. I did a couple of them with a sand blaster, but it is also possible to etch them with acetic acid. Depends on the hardness and structure of the bones. Thomas Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolleamm Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 the bottom nasal opening in the skull picture has scratch marks on the matrix that run perfectly straight into the bone, I'd say fake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 the bottom nasal opening in the skull picture has scratch marks on the matrix that run perfectly straight into the bone, I'd say fake... I'll stand pat with Auspex and Oilshale here, definitely a real fossil Keichosaur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I have been tempted on several occasions to purchase similar peices. I am far from an expert on fossils, and even further from being able to determine real or fake specimens. However, I am a potter by trade and have worked with clay for around 20 years now. The one thing that has always steared me away from buying these peices are the "puddles"(the ovalish/circular thing surrounding the fossil itself) that seems to always surround them. It looks like what we call, slip. As a self proclaimed expert at pottery, I can tell you that this type of object wouldn't be very difficult to replicate. I really do hope its real though...cause it is cool as heck! Cole~ Knowledge has three degrees-opinion, science, illumination. The means or instrument of the first is sense; of the second, dialectic; of the third, intuition. Plotinus 204 or 205 C.E., Egyptian Philosopher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaphe Pantherophis Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 Thanks for all the replies. To Piranha, thanks for pointing out the paint, I probably never would've noticed that... As for authenticity, I think it's definitely real ( but of course am biased)but the biggest determining factor for myself is the 3D qualities of the pelvic bones, look closely at the picture I posted and the amount of detail, molding, curvature just says "real" to me. There's a local college I'm going to check and see if there's someone there that might be able to look at it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptical1 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) A better than average fake: they've made it more 3D , but they are still painting bits onto flat clay, e.g. digits ... Aside from the painting, (and underpainting and lack of fine detail), isn't its neck too long for its body ? ... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Keichousaurus_hui_fossil.JPG Edited January 3, 2011 by skeptical1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 A better than average fake: they've made it more 3D , but they are still painting bits onto flat clay, e.g. digits ... You've got to bear in mind how prolific these fossils are. They find them hand over fist. The clue here that the fossil is real is the prepping technique of the wire wheel marks in the matrix. Reconstruction of missing elements is standard practice on these but there is a fossil here. Up close examination by a knowledgeable person would yield an exact restoration map to determine the percentage of fossil versus paint or putty. However, in this case we have a nice and fairly inexpensive representation of a Keichosaurus fossil, mostly real in my evaluation. The skull actually looks almost completely unaltered except for the fact it's suffered some erosion courtesy of the wire wheel. To dismiss it entirely out of hand as a complete fake seems a bit hasty to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaphe Pantherophis Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) A better than average fake: they've made it more 3D , certainly possible but they are still painting bits onto flat clay, e.g. digits ... Yeah, on quite a few actually, I was looking at it last night and it's on the ribs as well, but you can still feel them underneath...enhancement. Aside from the painting, (and underpainting), isn't its neck too long for its body ? ... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Keichousaurus_hui_fossil.JPG Judging from your link, mine looks shorter...to me at least Edited January 3, 2011 by Elaphe Pantherophis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaphe Pantherophis Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) Another thing I noticed was that the hairline fractures in the matrix run through the bones as well...in every area that I looked at. On a side note, looking at the bones of these small reptiles, they certainly had a very sturdy chest configuration with respect to structure ( can't be seen in mine, but in Piranha's link) Edited January 3, 2011 by Elaphe Pantherophis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 it seems that there are huge differences between the appearances of some prepped fossils from those of others of the same species. skeletons which have had every bone removed from the matrix and carefully reset into perfect position, and glued back together where there were breaks, etc. are inconsistent with "buzz-saw" prep methods which square off and grind flat bones for the sake of speed. when the two phenomenon are observed together, what conclusion should be reached? i enjoyed looking at these ==> link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptical1 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 i enjoyed looking at these ==> link I hope you didn't hurt yourself laughing. If you click on that link you will see that just below the Ebay logo is that of the Royal Institution (RI) with the word “member” proudly written underneath … Anyone proclaiming that membership of the RI is proof of scientific credibility is a scammer : You too can become a member for £15 - £95 p.a. … http://www.rigb.org/contentControl?action=displayContent&id=00000000849 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) I hope you didn't hurt yourself laughing. If you click on that link you will see that just below the Ebay logo is that of the Royal Institution (RI) with the word member proudly written underneath … Anyone proclaiming that membership of the RI is proof of scientific credibility is a scammer : You too can become a member for £15 - £95 p.a. … http://www.rigb.org/contentControl?action=displayContent&id=00000000849 Although I've never purchased from that particular seller I wouldn't hesitate to do so. Casual observation of their auctions over the years on ebay appears to indicate above average quality at affordable prices appealing to a broad range of consumers. Considering the thousands of members here at this forum, I would imagine that many have actually done business with this company. Titles and affiliations should not however, be the basis for evaluating the authenticity or quality of their fossils. Edited January 4, 2011 by piranha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 i saw no proclamations of anything, and i personally could care less what organizations someone is a member of. i just look at fossils, and sometimes hold down the <ctrl> key and scroll the mouse wheel to zoom in on them as far as i can, and study them carefully. i then consider how they look compared to what i've seen in the field, and in museums, and on the forum, and in books, and elsewhere online. i analyze stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeff Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 From a completely inexperienced fossil collector.. I wanted one of these at one stage and gave up with the information that I was getting back from several paleo's around the world. Which was basically to stay away from Chinese fossils unless you can get them x-rayed. Some told me also that this specimen is very common and also very easy to fake, and so there are many fake ketch's in the market. I was strongly advised to stay away from these specimens in particular unless you can get them x-rayed, as it is close to impossible to pick genuine/fake even with visual examination. I wouldn't know if this is right or wrong, but seemed sound advice. Thought I'd pass it on. Why not phone your local hospital or vets and see what they charge for an x-ray? I for one would be very interested in seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaphe Pantherophis Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 From a completely inexperienced fossil collector.. I wanted one of these at one stage and gave up with the information that I was getting back from several paleo's around the world. Which was basically to stay away from Chinese fossils unless you can get them x-rayed. Some told me also that this specimen is very common and also very easy to fake, and so there are many fake ketch's in the market. I was strongly advised to stay away from these specimens in particular unless you can get them x-rayed, as it is close to impossible to pick genuine/fake even with visual examination. I wouldn't know if this is right or wrong, but seemed sound advice. Thought I'd pass it on. Why not phone your local hospital or vets and see what they charge for an x-ray? I for one would be very interested in seeing it. Ironic you should mention that, I have a friend that does that and was just thinking earlier today to ask him if he could do it. I'll see what he says... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 It's not easy to get good X-ray pictures from with this kind of substrate. I am using an older x-ray apparatus for dentists. The quality is disappointing; almost no contrast bone to substrate. Same with Solnhofen fossils. In order to get a good contrast, you need to have different X-ray densities for bones and substrate. Since the chemical composition is almost the same, the contrast is very low. It works perfect with Bundenbach fossils, but there the fossil is pyritic. Thomas Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 here's the crux of the problem. zoom in on the picture on the right in your second post, the one with the rear legs showing. look closely at the left leg, the inside toe, next to the tail. zoom in on it. you will note that the last phalange is simply painted on. the next-to-last one is badly painted, but there is what appears to be a completely ground flat, gray phalange bone jutting off toward the left, not at all where the painted bone is. the point here is that if what is painted as the reptile isn't what is really there, then what is really there? and even if you could get some radiographic image showing where the ground flat "bones" are versus the matrix, i have not heard that xrays can differentiate fossilized keichosaurus bone from all other material. but i may be a lot more sure about stuff tomorrow, after i get through the middle of the week. so in my mind, it's kind of back to square one. if i had such a specimen, and was not at all concerned about losing whatever amount of money i had in it, i'd consider putting a solvent on it to attempt to remove any and all paint, polymer, etc. that might have been added. this of course is a risky proposition, and there's no guarantee that there would not be residual staining from something that's been done that the solvent wouldn't be able to remove. but anyway, if i did that, and was left with apparent original matrix that didn't break down, with something resembling a ground-flat skeleton in it that hadn't turned to gumminess, then i'd perhaps go with the assumption that it was real. i'd get some good magnification and examine it, and then repaint it to suit my own personal taste for accuracy, and move on. note that i'm not suggesting you do any of the above. just rambling my opinion out there on how i'd deal with the matter. any and all ruined specimens are the owner's fault but it is well established that there are highly faked fossils out there, and i remain unclear on why many believe they can discern realness from photos without testing specimens. the premise seems to be that the eyeball is a sufficiently good testing instrument to discern all the fakes, and i just don't know why that would be an accurate premise. note that i am NOT stating that things people say are real are not real. i am simply stating that, given the ability of patient, disciplined, gifted artisans to fool me, assuming they haven't seems a leap in logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowsharks Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Wow, even though I'm not into any of these types of fossils, it sure is interesting reading. The Chinese fake fossil industry seems comparable to that of the Moroccan fake trilo industry. It seems like for these type of fossils, you have face the fact in advance of your purcahse, that there's a good chance that what you are buying might be a fake or at least part fake. If you do that, and are comfortable with what you paid for the item, then you shouldn't be too upset if you later learn that the item is fake. One comment about how to test or detect "fake" fossils, or repairs. A friend of mine goes to the Tucson show every year and buys a bunch of stuff, everything from shark teeth to trilo's, fossil fish, skulls, rocks, etc. He carries with him a small "black-light" and uses it to detect if a specimen has been repaired. He demonstrated this at one of our club meetings one time and it was really neat. When you held the black-light over the skull, all of the areas that were filled in with plaster or whatever compund, easily stood out from the real bone material. He did say though that one of the dealers at the Tucson show asked him to put away his black-light because he was "causing trouble". The dealer was apparently lying about how much repair work was done on some of the skulls. Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Ahoy Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Do the black lights pick up well in a lit room, though? Is the fluorescence that obvious? I'd like to do this myself, but most of the dealers I buy from at shows always set up outdoors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowsharks Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Do the black lights pick up well in a lit room, though? Is the fluorescence that obvious? I'd like to do this myself, but most of the dealers I buy from at shows always set up outdoors. DA, I have not tried the black-light thing myself, only saw it demonstrated, and when that took place I remember we dimmed the lights. If you think about it, a dealer at a show shouldn't mind you asking to do a black-light test if they have nothing to hide and have disclosed everything in advance truthfully. I would suspect any reputable dealer would be more than happy to allow you to place a dark cloth over the specimen and give it the black-light test, especially if you're gonna pay good money for an item. If they refuse, then maybe they're hiding something. Just a thought. Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaphe Pantherophis Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Well my buddy with the X-Ray machine said he'd be more than happy to try to X--Ray it for me, he's unsure if it will work, but will attempt different methods to get a picture, should happen sometime this weekend so I should know by next week, will post pics. Also,I received a blacklight over the holidays ( for examining arrowheads),and was going to try doing this as well... but it was returned for not working at all, so I just need to get a new one, coming soon...so I'll try that as well... Any photo. experts know how to capture blacklight pics, is there a technique that will work better? I've also considered using a solvent as well, still debating...I honestly wouldn't mind if only the paint came off, while it looks like there's quite a bit, I think most of it, other than the phalangal bones is just enhancement... I'll be updating as the results come in, actually having a bit of fun determining what this is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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