Dromeus Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi all. A friend got this skull, but no information about it. It comes from Patagonia, Pleistocene (This information is not confirmed). Can help with this ID? Thanks! -Robert http://MinerFossil.Jimdo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi Dromeus, Vertebrates are not my specialty so I won't make a guess as to genus. The one observation I would make however is that some of the elements look composited. This might be the result of the unusual sequence of camera angles. I'll be curious to hear what the vert experts have to say. Thanks again for posting !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritageFossils Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Unfortunately that's a composited Moroccan sea turtle skull. -YvW Next fossil auction: June 6th, 2010 - Beverly Hills, CA http://historical.ha.com/NaturalHistory/ Check out our auctions and past auctions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinoid Queen Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi Dromeus, Vertebrates are not my specialty so I won't make a guess as to genus. I'll be curious to hear what the vert experts have to say. Thanks again for posting !! Hi Dremeus, I am with piranha on this one. I am not a vert expert but from my veterinary training the skull almost has a feline appearance to it. Hope the other member get it figured out for you soon -CQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dromeus Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Thank you very much everyone for the information. I hope we get to an early conclucion http://MinerFossil.Jimdo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I'm not seeing a turtle skull here. The orbits of turtle skulls are generally very far forward on the skull but those two openings on the front of this specimen look more like fossae than orbits. Is there any evidence that this fossil had teeth (tooth sockets or remnants of teeth, for example)? It has a mammalian look to me but it is difficult to be sure on the basis of those pictures. South America has had a large number of endemic mammals ever since the Cretaceous and, unfortunately, I've never seen examples of most of them. Perhaps your friend could clean a little of the matrix from the specimen and give us a couple more pictures, including one of the underside of the skull. -Joe Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I see turtle in there. Marine turtle. Doesn't look mammalian to me, but I will agree with fruitbat... can you see any teeth along the bottom edge? Turtles are toothless and have been through most of their fossil record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 the reason it isn't particularly recognizable is that it appears to be pieces stuck together by someone, without too much regard for actual morphology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I don't think it is a composite skull either, for that matter...and I'm STILL not seeing turtle! Convince me! -Joe Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) I'll give it a try, fruitbat. Assuming the skull in NOT a Moroccan chimera. You're forcing me to pull out my "Fossil Turtles of North America". The skull we are trying to ID seems to have very small orbits, and a very large or incomplete schnozz, but where I see turtle is in the back end, where the two large "openings" on either side of a backwards facing point. This looks a lot like these turtleskulls. Having looked at both my book and the skulls unlimited site, I will retract the sea turtle. Most of them seem to have a less exaggerated back end. Tortoises and pond turtles have the long spiny back end of the skull. Whatta ya think? I can't think of any mammal skulls that have this sort of structure in the temporal area. Edited February 27, 2011 by jpc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Mammals (especially the bizarre primitive South American ones) can have some pretty unusual skull structures. The large, flat area in the vicinity of the cranium (which appears to be missing on this specimen) isn't all that unusual, however. Check out this picture of a Merychyus (oreodont) skull from the Miocene of North America: image from The University of Montana Paleontology Center It appears to have the same basic flattened area you're referring to. The thing that I can't figure out about the skull in question is...where are the orbits?? Those two openings at the front of the skull simply don't look large enough to be the orbits of any self-respecting turtle...pond or not! I think I see a pair of nasals above the two large openings and what appear to be a pair of fused frontals. It also looks like the skull was broken into two pieces and put back together. I have no idea how much repair was required. I'm going to have to do a little more research on this one! -Joe Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I had a lot of trouble with this skull and I think Tracer is right in that the pieces are reconstructed without attention to anatomy, I have trouble seeing any good zygomatic arches, and as for orbits, I think those itty bitty holes are the orbits, just not reconstructed properly so they look more squashed. No hope of getting it to a good prep lab or a CT scanner, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 hey, um, what if we got teh guy who owns it to bust it open to see if it's really a Moroccan Chimera. anybody got a <drumroll, please> ... m. c. hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritageFossils Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 @Fruitbat: It's an attempt at one of the flat-faced moroccan sea turtles, see here: http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-rare-fossil-marine-turtle-skull-/290311955321?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4397f0e379 I called the the sad-faced turtles. -YvW Next fossil auction: June 6th, 2010 - Beverly Hills, CA http://historical.ha.com/NaturalHistory/ Check out our auctions and past auctions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Nice oreodont... But, the postorbital bar on the "turtle" is way too fat anteroposteriorly to be mammalian. Of course, I will be the first to say that if there is any reconstruction on this one, it is right there in the left postorbital bar. I still say turtle, very likely one just like the one YvW showed us. But I would certainly not rule out chimera. Not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Sorry folks...not trying to be obtuse...but nothing you've shown me so far convinces me that the fossil is a) a turtle, an attempt to 'fake' a turtle, or c) a composite. I'm still seeing mammal. It will be interesting to find out if it has teeth or tooth sockets. -Joe Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleozoicfish Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Sorry folks...not trying to be obtuse...but nothing you've shown me so far convinces me that the fossil is a) a turtle, an attempt to 'fake' a turtle, or c) a composite. I'm still seeing mammal. It will be interesting to find out if it has teeth or tooth sockets. -Joe Joe, Prove to us, it is a mammal. See what I did there, I flipped it over onto you. -PzF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 This appears to be a crude assembly of marine turtle skull parts, just as 'Heritage Fossils' suggests. Thirty percent, or so, of the skull is missing. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cris Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Here's a picture of the skull in question next to a Pliocene (river) turtle skull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 That's not a mammal. It does look a lot like a turtle - a very badly faked, composite turtle, and it even has that fake matrix the moroccans embed everything in. Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dromeus Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Thank you very much for all your help. I really think it's a fake, trying to resemble a turtle's skull. The pieces do not match by 80%, at least, the rear of the skull is good. I will tell the owner of the piece Thanks all -Robert http://MinerFossil.Jimdo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) Hi Guys. Like tracer said it is a composotion, I have had this piece in my hand and it has no teeth. Don't lost yourselves looking there a new specie, you can see the bone fragments joined without any care... It look that it was at the beggining a sea turttke skull later anyone started to modify it for try to sell it for a more interesting money, and he was succesfull. I know the guy that has exchanged this piece, dont wait he will break it , he will just trade it back and take his stuff ^.-. Edited February 28, 2011 by Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Southard Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 cretaceous marine turtle rare I spotted this on eBay and couldn't help notice the resemblance to your posted skull. It claims to be of Moroccan origin and very rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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