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Insect Wing


Terry Dactyll

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I was due a decent find and to be honest, you dont get much rarer than this lol... So I'm pretty happy with todays finds.... :D

Upper Carboniferous ..Duckmantian... Unknown insect wing...

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Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... :)

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Great find!

There are nice Carbo-finds popping up all over the Forum today!

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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No doubt you DID find one! Haha, hmm, I didn't notice this post when I made mine... Nice find Steve!

Searching for green in the dark grey.

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Hi Steve,

Do you have Arthropoda volumes 4(3) & 4(4) of the treatise on invert paleo? An entirely specialised world of insect wing nomenclature to thoroughly confuse anyone to madness. Don't you love it when the disciplines collide? Let's see, right now I'm getting up to speed on; C, CUA, CUP, M, MA, MP, R, RS, SC and everything else in between. Those designations are only a sliver of wing diagnostic characteristics ... I cry UNCLE, undescribed is just fine with me although I would really appreciate a bonafide expert to weigh in here that I might "back" into a reasoned classification of this wing type.

Great fossil ... Thanks for posting !! ;)

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Nice find Steve! I am just starting to go thru my buckets of concretions from last year.

I am hoping to come up with at least one insect.

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Well I had to make a go at a possible ID for your incredible insect wing. It would be a shame not to put the treatise to the test. I have it narrowed down to two candidates. My money is on Stobbsia woodwardiana as it is described exclusively from the Upper Carboniferous of England and similar to Pachytylopsis sp. (Breyeria) also recorded from England and much of Europe. Having said that they both look like a good match when scrutinizing the subtle nuance of the vein structures. Your fossil appears to be missing the distal and proximal portions having the middle section mostly intact as compared to the figured specimens. The images assembled have been enhanced for optimum contrast and all oriented to the same direction for ease of evaluation. I'll be curious to know your thoughts as well.

Cheers Steve, I hope one of them is correct !! :)

Palaeodictyoptera - Family Breyeriidae

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Thanks Guys & Gals...

Jesse... The maximum dimension of the preserved wing is 40 mm...

Scott....''Do you have Arthropoda volumes 4(3) & 4(4) of the treatise on invert paleo?''... I'm afraid I dont but judging by your explanations I'm glad I dont :unsure: ... It does truly look a nitemare trying to pin it down for a specific ID... I've scrutinised the diagrams and photos you have very kindly done for me and I agree with you that Stobbsia woodwardiana is the closest match of the 2... although even so you dont have to look very hard to spot some quite obvious differences going on with the smaller veins in the wing.... Is there a 'certain percentage' match to the reconstructions we are looking for or do they usually come 'identical'?...

I dont really know any more about the various types found previously to comment any further... I'm just pleased to have found it... One of only 3 fragments in 2 years from this exposure... I will photograph the others for you to take a look at if thats ok...

Rob... Fingers crossed for the nodules and let us take a look at what you find...

Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... :)

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Steve, Nice find! Eventually cracking all those nodules will turn up something really rare!

-Dave

__________________________________________________

Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPhee

If I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPhee

Check out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/

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Dave... Thanks.... and I certainly hope so ;) ...

I photographed the other wings from this exposure...Upper carb Duckmantian...

This one is 2 wings I reckon... much finer veination that the new one...

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This fragment is from a very large wing...From experience I just know its a wing... although there isnt much to go off for ID...

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This ones from another exposure Westphalian A... with the coarser grained sediments the preservation hasnt recorded the finer details...

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This one my Dad found (my favoroute) whilst having an hours collecting with me... It demonstrates some preserved pigmentation and patternation forming eliptical shapes...Its quite beautiful... I think the full insect is in there...

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Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... :)

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Is there a 'certain percentage' match to the reconstructions we are looking for or do they usually come 'identical'?...

This one my Dad found (my favoroute) whilst having an hours collecting with me... It demonstrates some preserved pigmentation and patternation forming eliptical shapes...Its quite beautiful... I think the full insect is in there...

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Hi Steve,

The primary characteristics of wing venation in the Palaeodictyoptera are identical within the described genera. What is variable however are the archedictyon; the primitive and irregular network of small wing veins. To your point, the closely related Megasecoptera have homonomous wings with archedictyon only rarely present.

The fossil your Dad found reminded me of a Homaloneura also within the Palaeodictyoptera. I can clearly see why it's your favorite. How remarkable that the color and patterning are preserved so beautifully. Thanks again for showing us these magnificent insects Steve, what a great thrill for you to find them and tons of fun kicking the can around trying to figure out what they are.

At least my books are less dusty now !! ;)

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Yes, great color patterns!

Scott, the wings you have pictured are from the Mazon Creek deposit. They were found by Walter Dabasinskas who was one of the more prolific "old time" collectors.

I have a few wings from Mazon that show coloration. The best is this set of wings from Eubrodia sp.

Trying to identify wings is extremely difficult. There have been a lot of revisions to the different insect orders and most of the published information is out of date.

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Yes, great color patterns!

Scott, the wings you have pictured are from the Mazon Creek deposit. They were found by Walter Dabasinskas who was one of the more prolific "old time" collectors.

I have a few wings from Mazon that show coloration. The best is this set of wings from Eubrodia sp.

Trying to identify wings is extremely difficult. There have been a lot of revisions to the different insect orders and most of the published information is out of date.

Excellent Rob, I was hoping you would post a few from your amazing collection. Thanks for the background on the Homaloneura, the treatise records it from the Upper Carboniferous of Europe as well as Mazon Creek. Probably only a handful ever found anywhere. Eubrodia appears to be one of those rare examples from Megasecoptera that has archedictyon present. The treatise figure does not show the details at all but describes it accurately and matches your fossil perfectly.

Cool !! B)

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Scott.... Thanks for the information... I've been given a contact of an insect specialist in the UK to try also for an ID...you never know...

Rob.... Very nice... The banding really stands out and I am sure I have seen that patternation before at Lapworth Museum on some specimens from Cosley Staffordshire....please feel free to post more of your mazon wings... it would be nice to see them all in one place on the forum for future reference...

Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... :)

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OK, your ammonites are really cool, but these are even more so, if a bit less OooohAaaah. That last one with the color preservation is simple fantastic. One step short of resplendent. (Just felt like using a big word... thanks for listening).

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Jim.... Thanks... It came from about 50 ft above the shark eggcases in a different layer...The eggcase layer had mainly aquatic life like the odd bellenurus crab and cyclus but no decent plant remains possibly indicating the area was submerged underwater for a while... I usually find from experience the insects come with the plant material and certain sites specific plant remains act as 'markers' to indicate your in the 'good stuff' ... I believe lots of the insects were 'sap suckers'...

JPC... Thanks... I may have to google that and get back to yer :D...

Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... :)

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Sweet! Thanks for sharing that with us. :)

In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory.

Alfred North Whithead

'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!'

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Thanks.... I got an ID back from the UK specialist that its off a palaeodictyopteroid and after a bit of googling I found they apparently have a unique mouthpart morphology. Their clypeus is much enlarged, and they have a distinctive beak formed by five elongate, stiff elements. They were the first plant feeding insects and preseumably this beak was for sucking sap and had they had palaeopterous wings which means they were unable to fold their wings back over their body when not in flight... The wings just moved up and down so the wings remained perminantly open... Patterning preserved on wings in the form of light and dark bands indicates that at least some palaeodictyopteroids were strikingly coloured with the biggest having over half a metre wingspan...they became extinct in the permian and its thought the demise was due to enviromental changes as well as the marked increase in the dragonfly species which would have found the slow moving palaeodictyopteroids easy prey as well as the replacement of early plants such as progymnosperms with more advanced forms with better protection against herbivores...

Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... :)

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