painshill Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hi folks (I'm new here) I belong to another fossil forum which I found to be not completely satisfactory. This one looks better, so I'm giving it a go. I wonder if anyone can help identify these vertebrae, even if only generically? I noted from browsing that there is at least one vertebra expert here. I don't collect vertebrae myself, but a friend in the States has asked if I can help... and I'm struggling. Would it be fair to say that vertebrae are more difficult to identify relative to other intact bones? That's my impression. Along with a bunch of other stuff, these are river finds from Oklahoma and unfortunately there's no real context, apart from the other stuff seems to be mostly (but not exclusively) marine and of mixed ages. The first one's about 1.5 inches maximum dimension. My initial impression was marine turtle, caudal vertebra. Interestingly, when searching for helpful reference sources on the net, I discovered someone had found a vertebra on a beach in India that could have been the twin of this one. He was looking for an ID too, but hadn't had any helpful replies: These next two seen to be from the same animal. There is a broken piece (at the top right of the first picture) of what looks like one of a pair of transverse foramen. Since it's on the wrong side of the 'body' of the vertebra it must be something else and not a complete canal. What animals or regions of the vertebral colum have these features? Marine reptile still? Cervical? And this one has lost most of its helpful identifying features, but maybe someone recognises it? Thanks Roger Roger I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painshill Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Hi again Is the lack of any comment here a reflection of the difficulty posed by identifying isolated vertebrae or a reflection of the lack of context for the finds? Or both? Just so I know next time whether it's actually worth posting these kinds of finds. Can't add much to the context apart from they were river finds near Tulsa, Oklahoma and it's difficult to say where they originate from because there's a fair old mixture of bones washing down from somewhere. Thanks again Roger Roger I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 you just have to keep posting things you find until you get feedback. a lack of feedback on a particular bone normally would mean nobody is confident enough in their ability to help you on that particular item. vertebrae can be difficult to identify. the ones you posted have some of the morphology missing, and they are of "medium" size. that means that unless someone has happened to memorize the details of the individual vertebrae from different parts of the spine of a large number of animals, then it's hard to toss out a possible id without a likelihood of giving you bad info. on the other hand, if you'd have posted one of the vertebrae from an animal that is very recognizable to members here, then you would have gotten multiple positive ids. gator verts are very distinctive, as are mosasaur, camelid cervicals, large stuff like mammoth/mastodon, cetacean, etc. so when in doubt, post and hope for the best. but don't get discouraged when you don't get feedback. we pretty much all probably have things we don't know the id of, but i have gotten ids after several years before too, so sometimes it pays to keep showing stuff around to different people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painshill Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Thanks 'tracer', it was a bit of a long shot. Roger Roger I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Coats Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) The last vert you posted looks like a sacral vertebra to me..but what I'm making out to be articulation surfaces, where it would have eventually fused to its mate, could just just be caused from wear (the photo of its top surface makes this appear to be the case). Edited July 4, 2011 by Mr Coats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vertman Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 In addition to Tracer's comments, please also remember you did post this going into a long holiday weekend here in the U.S. I imagine most of us have been getting as much collecting in as possible. I know I have been neck-deep in Pennsylvanian-aged quarries the last few days searching for shark material. Anyway, if these are river finds from near Tulsa, I am guessing they are from sand or gravel deposits somewhere along the Arkansas River. I have seen a lot of material from there. Most of what I have seen is bison material. Your examples are probably not bison. I don't see turtle remains in what you have. I don't believe they are reptile verts at all. I believe they belong to various mammals. They are probably from either very late Pleistocene or early Holocene deposits. The next to the last vert appears to be an atlas vert, meaning it is the one positioned closest to the head. The vert in the first several pictures may belong to a deer. In fact, they all might. It is sort of hard to tell without getting to examine them closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painshill Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Thanks vertman I'd completely forgotten about 4th July... what a dummy! Yep, Arkansas river would be about right. Your views are much appreciated. Vertebrae are not my bag at all and I was just trying to help give a friend some kind of steer on what he might have found, which seems to be a little bit everything so far. Hope you came out of those quarries with a full rucksack. Roger Roger I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
florida_fossils Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Welcome to the forum. Nice finds! I can't help with the ID, but I like what I see. Simplicity is not the goal. It is the by-product of a good idea and modest expectations. Paul Rand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkbyte Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) Hello Roger, I am leaning towards deer verts for the majority of them. Whitetail deer. Odocoileus virginianus. I say whitetail in a biased opinion because as a taxidermist the whitetail is my favorite. Have you found no other fossilized remains in the same area from deer? Antler pieces? Anyway, good luck collecting. Looks like you or your friend have found a nice place to collect. By the way, welcome to the Forum. Bobby Edited July 9, 2011 by Sharkbyte "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." - Confucius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkbyte Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) Here are pictures of a (non-fossilized) Whitetail Deer vert that my Son found recently in our favorite fossil creek. Compare it to yours. Hope it is helpful. I posted a topic recently about a complete scavenger ravaged deer skeleton but the article was mysteriously removed. I suppose it was because it was non-fossil related. Makes sense I guess. Bobby Edited July 9, 2011 by Sharkbyte "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." - Confucius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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