Mike from North Queensland Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I have set myself a chalenge to make up a composite set of Bramble Shark teeth (Echinorhinus sp). The deposit I collect these from is Cretacious (Albian) in age. As I know 4/5 of nothing about shark teeth. Can any one point me in the right direction for some litriture that will tell me about how many teeth, jaw placement upper or lower ect. And the list goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 For an example of a jaw from the extant bramble shark, go to elasmo.com and click extant dentitions. You've certainly picked a tough species to do a dentition for, I still don't have a single example in my collection. There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paleoc Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 (edited) What you have that I can see (matrix is obscuring some it) appears to be a bramble. If this is truly Albian age, then you are undoubtably looking at new species and probably a new genus. Henri Cappetta refers (Handbook of Paleoicththyology Vol 3B, Chondrichthyes II; 1987) to an unpublished species in the Campanian of Angola which is the oldest reference I can find. The next oldest also referred to in the aforementioned book as well and in Palaeo Ichthyologica, Zahnmorphologische Unterscuchungen an rezenten und fossilen Haien der Ordnungen CHLAMYDO-SELACHIFORMES und ECHINORHINIFORMES; Friedrich H. PFEIL; 1983 refers to Pseudoechinorhinus mackinnoni of the lower Paleocene of New Zealand. http://www.elasmo.com/frameMe.html?file=genera/cenozoic/sharks/echinorhinus.html&menu=bin/menu_genera-alt.html http://www.elasmo.com/selachin/slides/ss_dentition.html?sp=sharks These may help somewhat but are so far removed in time, that they will only be a rough guide. I would consider hooking up with a local trustworthy scientist (unfortunately a few are selfish scum) and getting it published. Edited August 16, 2011 by Paleoc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yeah, an Albian-age bramble would be very interesting to several researchers, especially Bruce Welton, who has specialized in squaliform sharks. In fact, his 1979 PhD dissertation is worth having as it focuses on squaliforms and hexanchiforms (Late Cretaceous-Cenozoic forms known from the west coast of North America). It also has figures of modern dentitions. I have seen some undescribed squaliforms from the Campanian of Hornby Island, British Columbia, including what would be one of the oldest occurrences of Echinorhinus. I saw an unusually-large bramble tooth from there last year in a private collection. Years ago, I sent Dr. Welton one or two other teeth that he considered close to what Arambourg (1952), the volume on vertebrates from the Moroccan phosphates, called Squalus crenatidens. I have seen this species assigned to at least one other genus since but it might have a new one by now. Also, there are figures of modern bramble dentitions in Garrick (1960). Jess P.S. That Palaeo Ichthyologica volume is hard to find. If anyone sees it, or any of the other PI volumes, for sale at a reasonable (or even somewhat unreasonable) price, I would suggest that you at least consider buying it. I was lucky to get a few of them for Christmas some time ago. Garrick, J.A.F. 1960 The Genus Echinorhinus, with an account of a second species, E. cookei Pietschmann, 1928, from New Zealand waters. Studies on New Zealand Elasmobranchii. Part X. Transactions of the Royal Society of New Zealand. 88(1):105-117. What you have that I can see (matrix is obscuring some it) appears to be a bramble. If this is truly Albian age, then you are undoubtably looking at new species and probably a new genus. Henri Cappetta refers (Handbook of Paleoicththyology Vol 3B, Chondrichthyes II; 1987) to an unpublished species in the Campanian of Angola which is the oldest reference I can find. The next oldest also referred to in the aforementioned book as well and in Palaeo Ichthyologica, Zahnmorphologische Unterscuchungen an rezenten und fossilen Haien der Ordnungen CHLAMYDO-SELACHIFORMES und ECHINORHINIFORMES; Friedrich H. PFEIL; 1983 refers to Pseudoechinorhinus mackinnoni of the lower Paleocene of New Zealand. http://www.elasmo.com/frameMe.html?file=genera/cenozoic/sharks/echinorhinus.html&menu=bin/menu_genera-alt.html http://www.elasmo.com/selachin/slides/ss_dentition.html?sp=sharks These may help somewhat but are so far removed in time, that they will only be a rough guide. I would consider hooking up with a local trustworthy scientist (unfortunately a few are selfish scum) and getting it published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike from North Queensland Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 The area where I get the teeth is Albian about 100 million years old give or take 2 million in age. The locals know these teeth are there if you want to sieve for them you can usually get a few. These would be the most common of the six or so species that can be found, but are not that abundant and good quallity specimens are another matter. The problem is that there has been no real research done on the shark teeth found in the area. Hence the lack of research I can do on specific species for my age and area. In Australia there seems to be a lack of paleontoligists and those that are here tend to go for the larger and more exciting animals to get any research funding. Back to my chalenge. looking at the elasmo link it appears that I need about 40 teeth, 20 upper and 20 lower of varing sizes. I will have to look at what teeth I have and take a guess and then look for some more feed back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike from North Queensland Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Just looking at the four teeth that I just posted I will take an educated guess that the two teeth with the convex surface are upper and the other two with the concave surface are lower jaw teeth. ??? The darker tooth is the same one from both sides and all teeth are on one millimetre graph paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I'm not convinced that the tooth at lower left is Echinorhinus. Is it as flat as the others? The root looks like it has a ridge on it. Echinorhinus is a very flat tooth and its overall form has not changed much (Eocene teeth look a lot like the other three; by the Early Miocene the teeth start exhibiting lateral cusplets). Even among modern species, while adult teeth bear lateral cusplets, the juveniles often do not, looking much like the Cretaceoous-Eocene teeth. When you get a chance, please show us the other teeth you are finding. With so many brambles, the layer may represent a deepwater environment. I would try contacting Bruce Welton. He is collector-friendly and an expert on brambles and their relatives. You can also try researching the formation, looking for any local or national geologist association field trip logs or guidebooks. Sometimes, you can find a paragraph or two on the fossils they found - information you won't see elsewhere. You could also try looking for any Ph.D theses on the geology of the region. Those are also good publications to find more on the fossils of an area. The area where I get the teeth is Albian about 100 million years old give or take 2 million in age. The locals know these teeth are there if you want to sieve for them you can usually get a few. These would be the most common of the six or so species that can be found, but are not that abundant and good quallity specimens are another matter. The problem is that there has been no real research done on the shark teeth found in the area. Hence the lack of research I can do on specific species for my age and area. In Australia there seems to be a lack of paleontoligists and those that are here tend to go for the larger and more exciting animals to get any research funding. Back to my chalenge. looking at the elasmo link it appears that I need about 40 teeth, 20 upper and 20 lower of varing sizes. I will have to look at what teeth I have and take a guess and then look for some more feed back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 On August 16, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Mike from North Queensland said: I have set myself a chalenge to make up a composite set of Bramble Shark teeth (Echinorhinus sp). The deposit I collect these from is Cretacious (Albian) in age. As I know 4/5 of nothing about shark teeth. Can any one point me in the right direction for some litriture that will tell me about how many teeth, jaw placement upper or lower ect. And the list goes on. Mike, Have you made any progress with your dentition? Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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