Indy Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 (edited) I know enough about scales to be dangerous This scale? is embedded in a nodule. Hoping replies will either include or rule out Scale Middle Pennsylvanian Series - Desmoinesian Stage Marmaton Group - Altamont Formation Lake Neosho Shale Member - St. Louis, Missouri This specimen appears on one of my web pages with title of "Fish Scale?" and hopefully it might be a scale... However, if not then the web page needs to be updated with an ID or removed. Looking forward to hear from anyone who can shed some light on the subject Barry Edited August 27, 2011 by Indy Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 My first impressions: It looks thicker than I'd expect a scale to be, and the material seems somewhat calcareous. From the pic, I'd vote "non-fish scale", and be thinking "mollusc bit". "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nandomas Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 What about brachiopod? :unsure: Anyway, nice find Erosion... will be my epitaph! http://www.paleonature.org/ https://fossilnews.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB88 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 hmmm...it is the same shape as a coelacanth scale. it doesnt show the growth lines though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 The nodule is phosphatic (phosphate nodule) and the only fossils found in these nodules are shark/fish related and inarticulate brachiopods. The thickness of the "Scale?" is a concern and often wondered if it was a "bad break". Mother Nature opened this specimen and the other half was not found. The problem with nodules is they do not always open showcasing recognizable fossils. In other words a "Bad Break" "Bad Break" At first glance it looks like it might be a tooth..However, its an illusion due to the orientation. Its actually a cross-section of a dermal denticle which is featured below the bad break. dermal denticle (oscicle) If it is not a scale then the only other fossil of this size found in nodules at this locality would be denticles. HOWEVER, there is no question scales exists at this locality. I just have not found one which is an Obvious Scale Inarticulate brachiopods (in nodules) found at this locality Click Here Your observations and thoughts? Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 For comparison... Here is a "Horizontal" bad break of a dermal denticle (CM scale) Barry Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Good stuff; how to "see" these things takes some experience and a bit of inspiration. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I'm not sure what you have either. It will be interesting to follow the comments here until the eureka moment. Btw, it is worth mentioning your wonderful presentations. I just took another stroll down memory lane through many of the fantastic paleo web pages that you have created over the years. What a treat and even better now that you are a member of TFF. Thanks for all of your great contributions Barry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 (edited) Hi Scott Appreciate the compliments and good to hear of your recent pleasant stroll down memory lane. LakeNeosho.org has been on-line for a long time. As you know, countless numbers have contributed their time and expertise over the years to partnership the various projects. Many are members of this forum (including yourself). So, I would like to take time to say “Thanks” to all my friends. Did you ever post the Aulacera plummeri ? Barry Edited August 27, 2011 by Indy Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 That one is just perfect thanks to you! Why try to improve on perfection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nandomas Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Here in Italy the debate is still open. Fish scale is the more credited guess cheers Erosion... will be my epitaph! http://www.paleonature.org/ https://fossilnews.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 What about an operculum (gill plate)? "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 What about an operculum (gill plate)? Oh, that's interesting! Never even considered parts of shark/fish other than found denticles and spines. Naturally, I don't have any working knowledge of gill plates either Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost1066 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I've found many modern fish gill plates that were similar. It does look too thick for a scale but gill plates tend to be thicker and have similar markings. Just a thought but looks closer to those than a scale in thickness Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted August 28, 2011 Author Share Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) I've found many modern fish gill plates that were similar. It does look too thick for a scale but gill plates tend to be thicker and have similar markings. Just a thought but looks closer to those than a scale in thickness Tommy Comparing the present with the fossil record is always interesting and a wonderful visual aid in discovery. We're may be getting close to the "eureka moment" Thanks, Tommy! Lets not allow the discussion to wind down because it appears scale might be ruled out pointing to gill plate. That's not science. Although this topic is narrowly focused...The odds are there are members who have collected the Pennsylvanian or other time periods and have found similar fossils. Barry Edited August 28, 2011 by Indy Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost1066 Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Barry I hope others keep adding their thoughts. I was just thinking out loud. Actually my first thought was a shell half of some kind. I am much more familiar with modern critters since I find dead ones at the lake so often and where I get to collect most of the time doesn't have fish. Although tomorrow I think I will run up the road to a place that is Lower Mississippian and see what I can find. Tired of the same things every trip. I live near a section of the Fort Payne segment of the Nashville group here in middle Tennessee and it has some stuff I don't have laying around the house. Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted August 28, 2011 Author Share Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) Barry I hope others keep adding their thoughts. I was just thinking out loud... Tommy Thinking out loud is an important part of the discovery process. Auspex brought up the possibility of gill plate an you followed through with your first hand working knowledge of modern gill plates. I've been fishing since I was a child and have caught countless fish. You are right about the shape and thickness. Now that I have a known in my mind to compare with the fossil...Unless someone comes up with some data and or pictures of a similar shape and thickness... I'm thinking gill plate as a good candidate. This subject is more complex than "hey, I found this articulated brachiopod...whats the Genus? :laughing on the floor 24: Thanks for your insights and good luck fossil hunting in the Mississippian tomorrow. By the way...I've hunted Mississippian localities for many years and looking forward to seeing some posts of what you have and will find. Barry Edited August 28, 2011 by Indy Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I'm more of a Cenozoic collector (that Paleozoic stuff is weird) but that does have the general shape of a dorsal view of a shark dermal denticle. A denticle is composed of a base (like the root of a tooth) and a cusp which extends at low to right angle from the base. The denticle you show follows a form that has been called Petrodus in the past; might have another name now. Can you give us a side view? By the Pennsylvanian sharks were very diverse. There were numerous tooth shapes and presumably numerous dermal denticle shapes but the latter appears to be far less-documented. The 1981 edition of the Handbook of Paleoichthyology notes a few genera but does not figure any in the section on them at the end of the book (just a few drawings near the front where denticles are introduced and briefly discussed). The second edition of that volume was released recently and might have more information. I know enough about scales to be dangerous This scale? is embedded in a nodule. Hoping replies will either include or rule out Scale Middle Pennsylvanian Series - Desmoinesian Stage Marmaton Group - Altamont Formation Lake Neosho Shale Member - St. Louis, Missouri Looking forward to hear from anyone who can shed some light on the subject Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TqB Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I'm backing opercular plate too - I thought scale at first (I've got some similar shaped ones of the same age) but, like you say, it looks too thick. Tarquin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted August 28, 2011 Author Share Posted August 28, 2011 I'm more of a Cenozoic collector (that Paleozoic stuff is weird) but that does have the general shape of a dorsal view of a shark dermal denticle. A denticle is composed of a base (like the root of a tooth) and a cusp which extends at low to right angle from the base. The denticle you show follows a form that has been called Petrodus in the past; might have another name now. Can you give us a side view? By the Pennsylvanian sharks were very diverse. There were numerous tooth shapes and presumably numerous dermal denticle shapes but the latter appears to be far less-documented. The 1981 edition of the Handbook of Paleoichthyology notes a few genera but does not figure any in the section on them at the end of the book (just a few drawings near the front where denticles are introduced and briefly discussed). The second edition of that volume was released recently and might have more information. The images on this post were taken years ago. Recently moved and much of the collection (including this specimen) have yet to be unpacked. Will look for the specimen to take more images including side views. You mentioned Petrodus and numerous shapes...True. The link below will take you to Phylum Chordata section on the Pennsylvanian fossil menu which features a number of specimens. Thumbs are clickable to view pages for each fossil. Phylum Chordata (Sharks and bony fish) Petrodus sp. dermal denticles (oscicles) Click Here Fossil Menu (top of page) Click Here Hope to post more pictures soon Thanks for contributing to the discussion Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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