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Shellseeker

Cuda, Otter, Or Something Else

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Shellseeker

Just made it out for a couple of hours today -- and then we had our local fossil club meeting..

I could not reach deeper spots because the river is still high, but I did find some nice small fossils.

Look at this odd one -- I have never seen one like it, and many of the normal experts at my club could not ID it. A number of people thought it was a barracuda tooth, and one guessed at otter.

All comments appreciated.

EDIT - Updated to add finer details on the photos.

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Edited by Shellseeker

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squalicorax

nice post

i really like the white mako tooth and the sand tiger tooth

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bear-dog

No barracuda,or otter there.It falls under s.o.c. some other critter.Personally I dont remember seeing anything like it.Keep us posted.Congrats.

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MikeDOTB

Love the color of that mako!

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Nandomas

Just a try for the mistery fossil: photo 39 remembers me some kind of small Ziphius beaked whale, very unusual in northern America. Anyway the other tooth views remember me a land mammal tooth

Edited by Nandomas

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Shellseeker

Mostly I find black on black Makos in the Peace River, there is only location where I find more colorful Makos like the ones pictured. The small Mako from yesterday seems like a "merge" between the cream and the black.

My favorite shark tooth type is sand shark. I have found these blue teeth with cusps previously and keep them in a riker of their own.

DeloiVarden, I looked up the beaked whale and the shape is similar so it is a candidate. I am hopeful TFF IDs it, but I have a backup plan of showing it to Richard Hulbert next time he speaks at our fossil club meetings.

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sixgill pete

I too will Say that mako is gorgeous. As far as the mystery tooth, it definitely is not a cuda tooth in my eyes.

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Mitchu

Im going to take a shot here. Going to go with whale but im going to tag it as Scaldicetus. From what I'm seeing the enamel on the tooth is in pretty good shape for these teeth, missing a pretty big chunk of the root however. The only problem is the size, seems a bit small but with a good chunk of the whale teeth the root makes up a lot of the actual tooth, so it may be pretty darn close for that and the species fits your neck of the woods I believe. Just an opinion.......

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Shellseeker

Thanks for the post. I searched Scaldicetus on google and found a couple of teeth that seemed similar

http://www.buriedtreasurefossils.com/chile_whales.htm. There is a single tooth and a set of teeth that look similar. It IS the size that seems impossible, but maybe, just maybe we have the tip of a larger tooth , and maybe, just maybe it is a small or juvenile whale.

At least we have a theory, :)

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Harry Pristis

My best guess is that this is a dugonid tooth, probably a canine. Nice find!

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Boesse

This is not "Scaldicetus". I've covered this before, but "Scaldicetus" is not a real taxon - it is a tooth taxon named in the 19th century, and that tooth morphology is now known to belong to at least four physeteroid sperm whales of different sizes (Acrophyseter, Livyatan, Zygophyseter, Brygmophyseter, to name a few), and thus its morphology is representative of most primitive sperm whales rather than a genus. Secondly, this doesn't match "Scaldicetus" at all: "Scaldicetus" has a bulbous, inflated root, has a well-developed enamel crown, and is generally large (~3" is the lower limit of most teeth). Additionally, the crown is typically much smaller relative to the root, and the root closes, in addition to there being a distinct neck at the base of the crown. But "Scaldicetus" is fake anyway, but for the sake of argument, it's probably not an archaic physeteroid from with "Scaldicetus" teeth.

That all being said, the growth rings suggest it could be some other kind of physeteroid, but exactly what I'm not sure. Walrus teeth show growth rings on their roots, but their crowns are typically worn down to nubs; it's definitely not a terrestrial carnivoran or a pinniped for that matter - they just don't have "haplodont" teeth.

I like Harry's suggestion that it could be a dugongid incisor, but it is a rather small (and short) specimen. Interesting find!

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Mitchu

Good info Boesse!

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Harry Pristis

That is good info from Bobby. I should have referred to this tooth as a "tusk", not a canine. Dugongid tusks are derived upper incisors, a condition like that in rhinos.

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Shellseeker

I am appropriately pleased!!! Meg%20Dance.gif I like having true experts apply their experience and reasoning to any of my finds. I have searched the internet for photos of Dugongid tusks, and have found more than a few which resemble this specimen. There is a TFF thread on this topic also http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php/topic/24357-sirenian-tusk/ It pictures a 4 inch!!! example, but I can see the similarities.

This one will go into its own "small" riker box. Thanks to all

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Shellseeker

Showed this to a couple of experienced experts at the FCOLC annual show today, and they concurred that the most likely source was a marine mammal, suggesting sea lion or seal, Got me looking again and I found the first photo (13/16th inch Seal Incisor) at http://www.buriedtre...eals/C755-F.gif. Adding the other 3 photos to highlight similarities. My unknown tooth is 17/16th Inch.

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Boesse

It's not a pinniped tooth - I'm not necessarily convinced that that other specimen on buriedtreasurefossils.com is even a pinniped tooth (it in fact looks more like a delphinoid tooth, and it is certifiably NOT an Acrophoca canine as it is labeled). In fact, I would recommend not identifying marine mammal remains based on anything on buriedtreasurefossils.com, because at least 30-50% of their marine mammal specimens are misidentified.

True seals don't have "zonal" growth patterns in their teeth like this. I strongly suspect that this aberrant tooth is from a small sperm whale, or very likely, a sirenian incisor.

Bobby

Edited by Boesse

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Harry Pristis

Bobby . . . What do you mean by "I strongly suspect that this aberrant tooth is from a small sperm whale, and very likely, a sirenian incisor."??

Do you think this tooth is aberrant for a dugongid tusk?

The tooth cannot be both sperm whale and sirenian, can it?

Metaxytherium floridanum has small, laterally-compressed tusks with a crown height of 15-25mm. I don't have a good example to illustrate. In fact, I think such a tooth is a pretty rare find.

My confidence level is reasonably high that this is dugongid.

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Harry Pristis

Harry, Bobby.

Do not know if this helps, but this website has a photo of an Eocene Dudongid jaw with teeth.

http://caribbeanpale...y.blogspot.com/

I don't think that the illustration of the Eocene dugonid is very useful. According to the blog-site...

Beginning about the Early Oligocene (33.9-28.4 Ma) the dental formula of most dugongids (including Dugong) stayed the same; it consisted of the first upper incisor, upper and lower deciduous premolars 3-5 and permanent molars 1-3

The chance of finding a Late Eocene mammal tooth in SW Florida (Peace River?) is slim to none.

Why don't you send images of the tooth to Velez-Juarbe at his blog-site. Let us know what he thinks.

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Boesse

Sorry I forgot to put an "or" where an "and" should have been, I certainly hope I can work towards your forgiveness.

To be honest, I'm no expert on sirenian incisors - most NE Pacific dugonids lack tusks (although there are a couple), and tusked dugongids are certainly more abundant in east coast strata (which I am less familiar with than cetaceans or pinnipeds). That being said, most of the sirenian incisors I have seen are larger in absolute size, BUT are of a very similar morphology. Additionally, there is a wide range of morphology among sirenian tusks (...just as there is for physeteroid teeth - and odontocetes in general), so there's no particular feature I can think of (or gut feeling for that matter) that would preclude it from being sirenian in my mind. I do agree with Harry - perhaps you should send along photos to Jorge, he's an awesome and really smart dude.

Bobby

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Shellseeker

.....The chance of finding a Late Eocene mammal tooth in SW Florida (Peace River?) is slim to none.

Why don't you send images of the tooth to Velez-Juarbe at his blog-site. Let us know what he thinks.

Agree -- it was just the best I could find on what a dugongid tusk MIGHT look like.... I have forwarded an email to Jorge. It is not that I question the excellent input from you and Bobby. I have always been driven to seek clarity on the chance it might exist. Somewhere there is a photo of another tooth/tusk that matches.

I will let all know what/if Jorge responds. SS

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