nccrushing Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Need help identifyng this skull. Found it yestday and finally got it out of a frozen sand bar today. Used hot water. Tip to tip it measures about 26, 27 inches.. Thinking occidentalis but do not know anything about this kind of stuff. Appreciate any info on what it is and how to take of it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkbyte Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 I don't know what kind but that is a beautiful find. Congratulations. Bobby "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." - Confucius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 That is a VERY nice skull! Bison "occidentalis" is the northern form of the Giant Short-horned Bison, Bison antiquus. Some authors synonomize the two while others split the species B. antiquus into two subspecies: B. antiquus antiquus and B. antiquus occidentalis. Still others consider them to be Bison bison antiquus and Bison bison occidentalis. Unfortunately, the taxon is characterized by extreme variability so it is difficult to distinguish between them. Characteristics of the northern form are: males with horn cores moderately short and compact length along upper curve of horn core about equal to the circumference of the core at the base horn cores usually rotated to the rear of the skull groove not usually present dorsally on the distal part of the core frontal bones vary from flat to moderately domed. It is also quite possible that you've got a large example of the Plains Bison (Bison bison). Horn core spreads for this beast can extend farther than 35" but, in general, Plains Bison average smaller than the Giant Short-horned Bison. The skull is generally broad with a short forehead. Hope this helps a little bit! -Joe Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiex4 Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Really nice! Who Says I Can't Be Wonder Woman..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Beautiful skull!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost1066 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Great find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 :o Amazing find, congratulations!! That is exceptionally well preserved! :greenwnvy: I have seen a bison fossil or two at my job, my semi educated opinion is Bison antiquus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Congratulations on your beautiful fossil! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrepShopBoyz Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Thats sweet! Sooooo cool to find whole skulls nomatter how old they are! congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diplotomodon Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 What can I say...holy cow Great find if there ever was one, congrats! What a wonderful menagerie! Who would believe that such as register lay buried in the strata? To open the leaves, to unroll the papyrus, has been an intensely interesting though difficult work, having all the excitement and marvelous development of a romance. And yet the volume is only partly read. Many a new page I fancy will yet be opened. -- Edward Hitchcock, 1858 Formerly known on the forum as Crimsonraptor @Diplotomodon on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mangoseed Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Love that skull!! Gorgeous. Congratulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Outstanding find Do you plan on consolidating the skull ? Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nccrushing Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 Thanks to all for the congrats. Indy I apologize, do not know what consolidating means. Jesse am curious to know why u say antiquus? Your the first to say that. I am interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I have a very limited knowledge of occidentalis since I have never physically held one. But my understanding of them is that they are identified by their unique horn orientation, which is parallel with the plane of the face from nose to forehead. This would mean that with the head down in "charge" mode the horn tips would be pointing straight up. In antiquus and related forms the horns are mostly perpendicular to the previously mentioned plane so they would point forward when the head is down. In your picture it appears that the horns are oriented more perpendicular to the plane of the face. The size of the skull in relation to the size of the horn cores tend to make me think antiquus over bison bison. That is a huge skull! I work at the Idaho Museum of Natural History in the vert paleo lab (as an undergraduate intern) and have been fortunate to work with a lot of bison material. We have priscus, alaskensis, latifrons, antiquus, and bison bison in the collections and your skull (at least from this photo) shares more in common with the antiquus. But I've been wrong before and a photo from a differnt angle may prove me wrong again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I agree with Jesse that your skull does seem to resemble the 'northern' (Bison occidentalis or Bison antiquus occidentalis) form in some ways but, unfortunately, it is tough to tell the orientation of the horn core tips from your pictures. In most cases, as already referred to, Bison antiquus horn cores tend to be rotated toward the rear of the skull...which can be diagnostic. The frontals on your skull appear to be domed. It still could be a big Bison bison, however. It is difficult to tell without having the skull in hand...and not an easy task even then! -Joe Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Indy I apologize, do not know what consolidating means. The skull is old but its not a true fossil. It could appear that way due to mineralization. If you notice cracks appearing and or small pieces falling off...You will want to consider consolidation to prevent further deterioration. I'm not an expert on the various consolidating techniques. A number of years ago, a close friend gave me a marvelous adult Mastodon tooth which he recently found in a river in Oklahoma. After a period of time I noticed some slight cracks and a few small pieces had fallen off A friend suggested I should "Consolidate" the tooth Immediately to prevent future deterioration. I submerged the tooth in a weak solution of Vinac and Acetone for a period of time which did the trick This technique worked for this tooth...However, there are different solutions and techniques and what is best for the tooth may not be the best choice to consolidate the skull. Others will offer consolidating suggestions for you skull...It may never need to be consolidated. Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32fordboy Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Again, if you could get direct head-on pics that would help tremendously. There is a simple string method to tell if the Bison is B. bison. Take a string tip-to-tip. If the string is about 2" away from the skull in the middle, it's modern. The problem with photos of Bison skulls is that one photo can look completely different than another photo of the same skull, skewing the viewer's perception. There are B occidentalis specimens out there that are way different from B antiquus. Most of what I have seen is in the horns. Like somebody said, occidentalis horns are supposed to be in the same plane as the skull and can supposedly even point rearward. I've noticed regular Antiquus horns tend to point more horizontal as viewed from the front (still slightly curved), while occidentalis horns tend to droop down at the base then recurve back up (much more curved, but not pointing up at the base like a modern bison). Regular autiquus horns do not lay in the plane of the skull. They point slightly forward like a modern bison. I can't offer an official opinion from the one photo, though I am personally leaning toward a huge Bison bison. The size range is about right for Occidentalis, but there have been Bison hunted down with horn spans over 30"!!! My opinions are my own and come from lots of research I was doing while trying to collect a skull from every species/subspecies, looking at hundreds of photographs online and comparing my own specimens with others. I am still down by an occidentalis, though. cough cough. Let us know how the string test goes. Member, BisonLatifrons, really knows this Bison stuff well. Maybe BL will chime in. Some pics are attached. It's easy to tell the difference between the modern specimen and the antiquus. Occidentalis becomes more difficult. Nick www.nicksfossils.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nccrushing Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 Trying to upload different angles. Am including the under side of one horn there is a tear shaped depression (rubbed away by something in water maybe) and a tooth found couple miles downstream. Sending the tooth for testing. hope its not a cow tooth. Haha. Also a comparison of a bison skull we got about three years that someone butchered. Thanks for the interest and comments. I was nervous to do this. Didnt want to embarass myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nccrushing Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nccrushing Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 Sorry computers are another thing I do not know a lot about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32fordboy Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 These new pics have me leaning toward a younger Bison antiquus. Since the horns are not in the same plane as the skull, I'd personally rule out Bison antiquus occidentalis. With the amount of variation among Bison species/subspecies, it's always a difficult call. Regardless of what it is, very nice find. Nick www.nicksfossils.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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