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Bison Skulls


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Brent - bison herds blackened the prairie. If a herd was crossing a low area and a flash flood hit, there could be hundreds of bison skeletons there. Water tends to sort by size, so all the bison would have settled together. Smaller animals somewhere else. (Even though if a giant herd of bison was coming through, I doubt there were smaller animals out and about.) This reminds me of the Centrasaur bone beds in Alberta.

Yes, then they would have died at the same time, my point is that for that many skulls to be in one place couldn't be a random reshuffeling of just any place on a prairie. There had to be (in my opinion) some "death" factor, whether it occured only once, i.e. flash flood, or a repeat incident, i.e. falling through the ice on a migration route. Something concentrated the remains.The entire site is a kind of trace fossil, trying to tell us something, if we only could understand the language.

Brent Ashcraft

ashcraft, brent allen

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Yes, then they would have died at the same time, my point is that for that many skulls to be in one place couldn't be a random reshuffeling of just any place on a prairie. There had to be (in my opinion) some "death" factor, whether it occured only once, i.e. flash flood, or a repeat incident, i.e. falling through the ice on a migration route. Something concentrated the remains.The entire site is a kind of trace fossil, trying to tell us something, if we only could understand the language.

Brent Ashcraft

The problem as I see it is with your assumption that all the animals died at the same time

Rivers sort their weight and not necessarily mean that all the animals died at the same time.

There is also some question regarding various species and time periods they lived in

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The problem as I see it is with your assumption that all the animals died at the same time

Rivers sort their weight and not necessarily mean that all the animals died at the same time.

There is also some question regarding various species and time periods they lived in

I am saying that there are two possibilities, dieing at the same time is one, the other is some kind of "death trap" that caused a concentration of carcasses within an area, possibly over many years. It seems odd to me that if it was a flood plain trap that there wouldn't be other animal remains though (and there might be as they sort through them). I don't think that bison numbers exploded until after the other megafauna went extinct, which is a typical response after a mass extinction. The numbers of survivors increases dramatically in relation to their previous population due to opening of the ecosystem (no competition). Just my thinking, please feel free to criticise as necessary.

Brent Ashcraft

ashcraft, brent allen

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Maybe this find is from a post-die-off period. If the Mammoths, Mastodons, and sloths were gone, Bison would have been the heaviest things around. That would account for the large amount of Bison fossils in one area. If a Bison and a coyote walk onto a frozen lake, the Bison might be in great danger while the coyote will probably have no issues.

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Maybe this find is from a post-die-off period. If the Mammoths, Mastodons, and sloths were gone, Bison would have been the heaviest things around. That would account for the large amount of Bison fossils in one area. If a Bison and a coyote walk onto a frozen lake, the Bison might be in great danger while the coyote will probably have no issues.

Would that be possible though if there is a mixture of species like you were speculating earlier? I am not familiar with the taxonomy of bison, but I assume theat B. antiqus would be Pleistocene?

ashcraft, brent allen

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Yeah, over a period of time. We are talking late Pleistocene/early Holocene, too.

That said, I just got done talking to a mammal paleontologist who says he worked on a site where there where at least 2 species represented a single group of Bison. Dozens of skulls were found in one area, supposedly the result of a mass flood about 9,000 years ago.

The problem with Bison is knowing where to draw the line between species, since individual variation is so high. I respect this mammal paleontologist, so if he says it's possible for more than one species to have lived together and died together...it must be a possibility in this scenario, as well, though I was under the impression each species evolved into the next, leaving nothing behind of the last species.

Interesting stuff.

As far as Bison evolution goes, here's how I understand it (NOTE: I admittedly need to research this a lot more):

European Bison priscus moved to Alaska and became Bison priscus alaskensis.

B. priscus alaskensis evolved into Bison latifrons.

B. latifrons evolved into B. antiquus approximately 20,000 years ago.

B. occidentalis may actually be B. antiquus occidentalis. It seems to be a bit smaller than B. antiquus and has the droopy/rear-twist horns.

B. antiquus evolved into B. bison about 10,000 years ago.

B. antiquus occidentalis died off about 5,000 years ago.

There are currently two subspecies of American Bison, representing the plains and woodland variety, the woodland variety being bigger. Most herds (all but 2) are not pure Bison. They were the result of breeding with common cattle to increase the population after westerners nearly wiped them out.

The problem, as I understand it, is that Bison evolved fairly quickly over the last 20,000 years, with B. antiquus occidentalis dying off about 5,000 years ago. The quick evolution and high trait-variation makes it difficult to tell which species is which. In my opinion, Bison make an amazing case for evolution, with no "missing link" whatsoever.

This is becoming more interesting by the post.

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Yeah, over a period of time. We are talking late Pleistocene/early Holocene, too.

That said, I just got done talking to a mammal paleontologist who says he worked on a site where there where at least 2 species represented a single group of Bison. Dozens of skulls were found in one area, supposedly the result of a mass flood about 9,000 years ago.

The problem with Bison is knowing where to draw the line between species, since individual variation is so high. I respect this mammal paleontologist, so if he says it's possible for more than one species to have lived together and died together...it must be a possibility in this scenario, as well, though I was under the impression each species evolved into the next, leaving nothing behind of the last species.

Interesting stuff.

As far as Bison evolution goes, here's how I understand it (NOTE: I admittedly need to research this a lot more):

European Bison priscus moved to Alaska and became Bison priscus alaskensis.

B. priscus alaskensis evolved into Bison latifrons.

B. latifrons evolved into B. antiquus approximately 20,000 years ago.

B. occidentalis may actually be B. antiquus occidentalis. It seems to be a bit smaller than B. antiquus and has the droopy/rear-twist horns.

B. antiquus evolved into B. bison about 10,000 years ago.

B. antiquus occidentalis died off about 5,000 years ago.

There are currently two subspecies of American Bison, representing the plains and woodland variety, the woodland variety being bigger. Most herds (all but 2) are not pure Bison. They were the result of breeding with common cattle to increase the population after westerners nearly wiped them out.

The problem, as I understand it, is that Bison evolved fairly quickly over the last 20,000 years, with B. antiquus occidentalis dying off about 5,000 years ago. The quick evolution and high trait-variation makes it difficult to tell which species is which. In my opinion, Bison make an amazing case for evolution, with no "missing link" whatsoever.

This is becoming more interesting by the post.

One side question here. How can bison breed with common cattle and produced viable offspring when they are different species within different genera? I mean, they are most certainly related since they are in the same subfamily...but something does not sound right. Maybe I am missing something here.

-PzF

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Beefaloes are fertile. Some people have suggested merging Bos and Bison, too. Beefaloes have 3/8 Bison genetics, anything greater than that is referred to as a Bison hybrid.

I do know that Beefaloes taste good, too. Sweet, delicious evolution.

EDIT: I was wrong, there are 4 pure herds.

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One side question here. How can bison breed with common cattle and produced viable offspring when they are different species within different genera? I mean, they are most certainly related since they are in the same subfamily...but something does not sound right. Maybe I am missing something here.

-PzF

Species concepts are complicated and varied, it is my opinion that their are as many species concepts as people to discuss them. That said, the modern cow and bison are very closely related, its a bit like asking how wolves and dogs can interbreed. The primary reason the biological species concept does not play well here is that human domestication has complicated the issue.

"They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things."

-- Terry Pratchett

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A beefaloe steak sounds good about now, but I still don't understand the idea of a frozen lake scenario. He said the finds are coming from a river. :) Given that, the location sounds like it was near a habitual crossing area. Is it too far fetched to think there could be the bones of hundreds of bison scattered through the gravel bars in that stretch of the river? I mean, consider the size of a large herd encountering a high water event. Then, consider it happening occasionally through the years.... So, a couple dozen skulls and other bones scattered throughout a very large gravel bar doesn't sound so improbable, but finding them is remarkable. I like Ramo's suggestion - check upstream and downstream. :D

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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Given that, the location sounds like it was near a habitual crossing area. Is it too far fetched to think there could be the bones of hundreds of bison scattered through the gravel bars in that stretch of the river? I mean, consider the size of a large herd encountering a high water event. Then, consider it happening occasionally through the years.... So, a couple dozen skulls and other bones scattered throughout a very large gravel bar doesn't sound so improbable, but finding them is remarkable. I like Ramo's suggestion - check upstream and downstream. :D

I don't think what you are suggesting is any less improbable, and maybe more likely. However, you would also have to consider the body of water it was found in, and I don't know if it was mentioned. Has it been there for 20,000 years? Even the Mississippi near to where I live, has moved more then 40 miles eastward in the last 20,000 years or so.

Brent Ashcraft

ashcraft, brent allen

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The problem with Bison is knowing where to draw the line between species, since individual variation is so high. I respect this mammal paleontologist, so if he says it's possible for more than one species to have lived together and died together...it must be a possibility in this scenario, as well, though I was under the impression each species evolved into the next, leaving nothing behind of the last species.

The line of thought that one species slowly morphs into another is known as anagenesis, it has largely been shown not to occur. What is thought to generally happen is that small groups of the main species become isolated, they evolve independantly, and when the species remix , if they have evolved enough, they can no longer interbreed, and you have a new species. If they do regularly interbreed, the difference is slowly nullified by the mass of the population and eventually there is no difference. Many species exist along with their parental groups, such as coyotes which evolved from wolves, and then evidence suggests they also evolved into the timber wolf of the east coast area, they may also have been the parent stock of red wolves of the south east. If you follow the eastward move of coyotes, you would see that the ones inhabiting the east coast are becoming larger through time, possibly a response to having to feed on deer in the winter time. If you have an area that is missing many species, either having never been there, or wiped out, then these pockets of evolution (isolation of a breeding population from the main group)produce many new species in a geologic short time, which we call punctuated equilibrium.

Brent Ashcraft

ashcraft, brent allen

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I don't think what you are suggesting is any less improbable, and maybe more likely. However, you would also have to consider the body of water it was found in, and I don't know if it was mentioned. Has it been there for 20,000 years? Even the Mississippi near to where I live, has moved more then 40 miles eastward in the last 20,000 years or so.

Brent Ashcraft

That's a perfect example of the riverine dynamics I was suggesting. As a river swings back and forth in its valley through the centuries, it uncovers things (flash flood events) that it may have buried thousands of years ago. This accounts for the great condition and larger concentration of some river finds which have only 'recently' been exposed.

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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We rinsed the skulls with a gentle shower of water. Then we brushed them with a fairly soft brush. How should we treat them in regards to preservation....acyloid B-72? Does someone have any other suggestions? Thanks.

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We rinsed the skulls with a gentle shower of water. Then we brushed them with a fairly soft brush. How should we treat them in regards to preservation....acyloid B-72? Does someone have any other suggestions? Thanks.

Interesting question

Have you noticed any of the skulls starting to split or any flaking?

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No splitting or flaking. They tend to be somewhat weaker in the nasal area although they are stronger than they appear.

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A few years ago I was given a beautiful mastodon tooth that a friend recently found in an OK river.

I put the tooth on a display shelf and really didn't pay much attention to it for a couple of months. One day a friend came by and I went to pick up the tooth and noticed few small chips beside the tooth. Also I noticed a small crack on the tooth that wasn't originally there.

Not being a bone collector...I made a quick call and was told that I should consolidate the tooth immediately to stop further deterioration. He suggested I use a Vinac/acetone mixture (forgot the ratio) and suggested to amerce the tooth and wait for the bubbling to stop before removing it. Also he told me that repeated treatment might be needed but probably not. He said that repeated treatment would create a shine that I might not appreciate.

Bottom line...I followed the instructions and it did the trick with only 1 treatment :)

Since your skulls were found in water...I would be interested in what the experts on our forum would suggest regarding consolidating or not consolidating the skulls.

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Its a hair splitters argument. The answer is truly depends who you ask. They are awesome skulls none the less! The mass burial situation has trappings of the Hudson-Meng kill site in Nebraska. Have you found any flint chips etc in the area? I too find bison skulls burried in gulches and river banks here in Montana. Very similar rusty mohogany colored preservation. It would be interesting to look at thin section under a SEM to see how much is indeed permineralized. I am fascinated by the progression from organics to mineral of early stage fossilization.

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...the location sounds like it was near a habitual crossing area. Is it too far fetched to think there could be the bones of hundreds of bison scattered through the gravel bars in that stretch of the river? I mean, consider the size of a large herd encountering a high water event. Then, consider it happening occasionally through the years.... So, a couple dozen skulls and other bones scattered throughout a very large gravel bar doesn't sound so improbable, but finding them is remarkable...

Ding ding ding!

No need to evoke an catastrophe to account for the physical evidence; just time and lots of bison.

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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The odd thing to me is that they are bison, and nothing else. If it is post megafauna extinction, it certainly would make sense that time has concentrated the remains. If it is pre-extinction, it becomes less likely as my understanding is that bison were not as plentiful as later, and certainly many other animals walked the plains at that time. To me, that points to catstrophe, with a herd of bison in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Brent Ashcraft

ashcraft, brent allen

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  • 1 month later...

All points to Bison antiquus (or the transitional form Bison "occidentalis"), but there are some skulls that seems to be Bison bison. The degree of preservation is awesome.

And yes, according to McDonald (1981), B. antiquus is the ancestral species to B. bison.

GREETINGS

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