Govinn Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I posted this thread on BlackRiverFossils a while back and wanted to share it with you all. This test was conducted on a whale bone specimen I collected from Surry County, VA. I am conducting another test today on a whale bone specimen I found in Brunswick, GA recently. Enjoy... I ran across a few articles about shark teeth and whale bones having Uranium inside them. This may be old news to some of you, but for us newbies it's pretty interesting. If I'm wrong about any of this, please feel free to correct me. I was once a Nuclear Reactor Operator and now I'm a Nuclear Health Physics Technician. The thought of collecting radioactive fossils has perked my interest. So I had a gamma spectroscopy conducted on a specimen I found. Keep in mind that this analysis only looks for gamma radiation emitted by various nuclides. The fossils don't emit a lot of gamma radiation, but do emit a lot of beta radiation. (The average whale bone that I collect is about 10,000 dpm.)The parent nuclide is Uranium-238, which is a naturally occuring element. Below is the decay cycle of U-238. The nuclides present in the gamma-spec are bolded along with the half-life. The half-life is how long it takes each nuclide to lose half of its original intensity. URANIUM-238 (238U) 4.5 x 109 years THORIUM-234 (234Th) 24 days PROTACTINIUM-234m (234mPa) 1.2 minutes PROTACTINIUM-234 (234Pa) 6.75 hours URANIUM-234 (234U) 2.47 x 105 years THORIUM-230 (230Th) 8.0 x 104 years RADIUM-226 (226Ra) 1622 years RADON-222 (222Rn) 3.8 days POLONIUM-218 (218Po) 3.05 minutes LEAD-214 (214Pb) 26.8 minutes ASTATINE-218 (218At) 1.5 seconds BISMUTH-214 (214Bi) 19.7 minutes POLONIUM-214 (214Po) 1.64 x 10-4 sec THALLIUM-210 (210TI) 1.3 minutes LEAD-210 (210Pb) 22 years BISMUTH-210 (210Bi) 5.0 days POLONIUM-210 (210Po) 138 days THALLIUM-206 (206Tl) 4.2 minutes LEAD-206 (206Pb) Stable This is pretty interesting stuff. I'd love to answer any questions that you may have. If I can't then I'm sure that I can find an answer for you. Happy Hunting, John History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffie Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Are these fossils dangerous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharks of SC Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I remember being in a Marine Bio class in high school here in Charleston, SC when my profressor pulled out a fossil whale vert. (presumably from the harbor) and ran a geiger counter over it - it definatley triggered a response, though nothing too significant. Nobody in the class would touch the thing. I always wondered if this was a regional thing. Do fossils in non-marine environment exhibit higher-than-background radioactivity? Do dino bones from the midwest?...whales from Calvert Cliffs? Very interesting topic, Govinn - thanks for providing the breakdown of the elements present. Let us know what you find in your GA example. CBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 No. You will pick up more radiation (from the sun) from hunting for the teeth than the teeth themselves... Beta particles don't travel very far in air (less than a few inches) so unless you are sleeping directly on them you have nothing to worry about... On a side note... Beta particles normally will not penetrate a sheet of paper, so when you're hunting for them and put them in your pocket... you're ok there too... I had a friend of mine that would put the first tooth he found in his mouth (for good luck) while he hunted for the rest of the teeth. After I told him what I found out he stopped doing that... probably a good idea since he had nothing shielding the Beta particles from the soft tissue in his mouth... he smoked too, so the tooth was nothing compared to what the cigarettes did... History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharks of SC Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Are these fossils dangerous? According to what I've heard, it would requre long, extended periods of exposure before you would be in any risk....thats why I only spend two hours a day with my fossils . Additionally, I feel like I was told this phenomenon only occurs in marine environments, which would make your Summerville teeth absolutely safe..but the jury is still out on that last one. Either way, I'm sure we'll know more shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharks of SC Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 thanks Govinn, you beat me to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 I remember being in a Marine Bio class in high school here in Charleston, SC when my profressor pulled out a fossil whale vert. (presumably from the harbor) and ran a geiger counter over it - it definatley triggered a response, though nothing too significant. Nobody in the class would touch the thing. I always wondered if this was a regional thing. Do fossils in non-marine environment exhibit higher-than-background radioactivity? Do dino bones from the midwest?...whales from Calvert Cliffs? Very interesting topic, Govinn - thanks for providing the breakdown of the elements present. Let us know what you find in your GA example. CBK You're welcome CBK. I believe the answer to your question is "yes", but I can't speak for all fossils... the ones I've tested all have radioactive isotopes, and I've tested several different sites. It all depends on the elements that surrounded the fossil when it was being fossilized. The reason for my research is I was working on building a "fossil detector'. I'm an inventor (by night) and a Nuclear Specialist (by day). I decided to combine the two.... I'm still working on it. I have a theory that is different than the link I'm about to provide... It's a really neat idea and I hope to finish it one day... Here's a link to a guy in Utah that hunts for dino bones using a type of geiger counter... http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9706/12/t_t/fossil.finder/ History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeymig Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 This is from a little while back. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php/topic/25899-pairs-of-lee-creek-whale-vertebrae/page__p__283535__hl__+radioactive%20+__fromsearch__1#entry283535 Mikey Many times I've wondered how much there is to know. led zeppelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 This phenomenon has been used to detect fossils, just google radioactive dinosaur bones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 You can bet that fossils from the phosphate mines are radioactive. Here is an EPA info sheet on radioactive by-products (phosphogypsum) from phosphate processing. http://www.epa.gov/radiation/neshaps/subpartr/about.html#where_does If you ever drive through Bone Valley in Florida, you'll be astonished at the size of the "stacks" of radioactive phosphogypsum which loom like mountains on the otherwise flat horizon. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffie Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Whew, I couldn't figure out where I was going to get one of those suits they wear to keep safe from the radiation. Thanks for the answers you guys. Edited March 3, 2012 by Taffie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 You can bet that fossils from the phosphate mines are radioactive. Here is an EPA info sheet on radioactive by-products (phosphogypsum) from phosphate processing. http://www.epa.gov/r...html#where_does If you ever drive through Bone Valley in Florida, you'll be astonished at the size of the "stacks" of radioactive phosphogypsum which loom like mountains on the otherwise flat horizon. Harry: Great article! It was very informative. Thanks for sharing. Are these the big stacks I see near the PCS mine in Aurora, NC? Taffie: I am friends with the owner of the company that makes the suits for most of the nuclear industry... I can get you a suit if you need it... History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nandomas Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Very interesting topic. When I was an avid dino bone hunter in Utah, I was a little scared by uranium, but, after 15 years I am still... alive Erosion... will be my epitaph! http://www.paleonature.org/ https://fossilnews.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckmerlin Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) This is a very interesting topic for me , In my area there are shale marine bands that are radioactive. They are usually distal deposits with Goniatite faunas. These faunas are used to date the shales . Here is a link , this article is about shales in England but the shales here are similar , I couldnt find the article relating to them http://www.sciencedi...009254100003764 Edited March 3, 2012 by ckmerlin "A man who stares at a rock must have a lot on his mind... or nothing at all' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsnake Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 And I thought I was getting into a safe hobby! And everyone says,"Oh yeah, it's great to take the kids fossiling!". Now what am I going to do? (Just being silly!!!) Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) I used to collect minerals. On one group trip we entered a mine in Cornwall, UK, and after a while the air seemed to get foul, (it was all along, but not noticeable). After a while a few of us started to get headaches, and feeling drowsy, we got out quick. While discussing what we had collected, I saw a small, partially hidden sign, which warned against entering due to the concentration of Radon. Edited March 3, 2012 by Bill KOF, Bill. Welcome to the forum, all new members www.ukfossils check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 Radon is no joke!! It builds up in low areas with little air flow... BTW... I just completed the gamma-spec on a whale bone and a 1.5" Great White from Brunswick, GA. I'm compiling the data now. History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I've heard that our Pennsylvanian black shales acted (act?) as a sink for heavy elements, including uranium and thorium. As my collected pieces are fairly small in total bulk, I don't worry about them too much. Besides, I would probably get more radiation from making a cell call bragging about a fossil find than I would from the fossil itself. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgodwin37 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Organic matter acts as a sink for such things as uranium, thorium, potassium (the three we measure using a spectral gamma ray), hence why black shales are "hot" and why you may get elevated gamma ray measurements in some fluvial strata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 In certain deposits.... Good to know that one could go hunting for fossils with a geiger counter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffie Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Harry: Great article! It was very informative. Thanks for sharing. Are these the big stacks I see near the PCS mine in Aurora, NC? Taffie: I am friends with the owner of the company that makes the suits for most of the nuclear industry... I can get you a suit if you need it... I might take you up on your offer. I understand there used to be a phosphate mine here in my neck of the woods a long time ago. We have a road in the area named, "Ashley Phosphate Road". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) My apologies... This took a lot longer to process than my original test... My whale bone contains traces of URANIUM-235, THORIUM-230/234, RADIUM-226, BISMUTH-214, LEAD-214, and IODINE-134M. My Great White contains traces of URANIUM-235, THORIUM-234, BISMUTH-214, and LEAD-214. The whale bone emitted 45 different energy levels (keV) while the GW only emitted 6. 50% of the emitted energy (for both fossils) belongs to LEAD-214 (Pb-214). These fossils also emit alpha particles. I was not surprised when I used a scintillation detector to see that the whale bone emitted 105 dpm. Alpha particles normally can't penetrate the dead layer of skin on our bodies, so it's not an external hazard. If ingested then we have a lot bigger problem because alpha particles carry lots of energy and can damage the soft tissue. This is not meant to scare anyone, but just inform... Short of the story is... don't put them in your mouth and you'll be alright... Edited March 3, 2012 by Govinn History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think I heard/read a story on highly radio-active Pleistocene age fossils (mammoth bones in particular) from a river in Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Romania?) once. Definitely somewhere in the Eastern part of Europe, and the radiation is supposed to have occurred from natural causes, too, but I couldn't find any references for either claim. Apparently in Scotland there are also some sites (i.e. Thurso) which yield Devonian fish that are unusually radio-active. Here's a link to the 1956 article published in Nature on this topic. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v211/n5050/abs/211728b0.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If a vertebrate fossil is radioactive.... inhalation of the dust during prepping will definitely pose a health risk as radioactive nuclei could lodge into the narrow air passage and could end up in the GI tract increasing risking of health problems..... can't hurt wearing dosimeters and geiger counters and respirators on during fossil prep of mildly radioactive bone fossils.... some thing to consider.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 I agree with pleecan on the hazards of breathing dust from radioactive fossil prepping... I tried to prep this fossilized whale bone one time (when I first started fossil collecting) and didn't have a mask on... I got sick the next day and was out for 3 days... I swore up and down that I caught some 12 myo virus!! LOL HOWEVER, if you are in need of a dosimeter and geiger counter to work on your fossils then you better reconsider what you're working on... it better qualify for Fossil Of The Decade... Two things could affect the amount of radiation being emitted by a fossil... 1. The concentration of radioactive isotopes inside the fossil (small fossils with higher concentrations will emit more radiation) 2. The size of the fossil itself. (large fossils with small concentrations will emit more radiation than a small fossil with the same concentration simply because there is more of it...) I know that is pretty-much common sense, but I thought I would share it... History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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