Jaw Bones

[Rob Russell]

Hello everybody! I have hear a couple of lower mandibles that I found in the Fox River, Kane County, Illinois. I found the one with only one tooth on 7/2, and the one with several teeth today, 7/4. I found them on opposite banks of the river, yet directly across the river from one another. Quite possibly associated with the same animal. The are opposites, and of equal size. They look nothing like the horse mandible I found with two teeth in it, and are too large to be deer. Any suggestions or comments would be great! Thanks in advance.

Rob

Edited July 4, 2012 by Rob Russell

[RickNC]

Bovine? I grew up in IL and I recall plenty of cows!

[Raistlin]

It does look bovine, maybe it is buffalo.

[Auspex]

I, too, think it is bovid.

[Rob Russell]

Thank you guys for your responses. Might their be some distinguishing characteristics that could separate cow from bison? Perhaps with the teeth? I tried getting the chewing surface pictured as best i could. As you can see this guy must have been a smoker, and avoided dentists!

[Raistlin]

LOL that thing looks like it came form the tar pits for sure.

I am not that good with this stuff, but it reminds me a bit of the cow jaw bones (modern) I used to see as a kid.

Here are some bison jaw photos.

https://www.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&safe=off&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&q=moose+jaw+bone&oq=moose+jaw+bone&gs_l=img.3..0.1684.4784.0.4954.14.12.0.2.2.0.110.1183.5j7.12.0...0.0.nw5TXq1XjG4&biw=1499&bih=737&sei=H730T-XUDc3tqQGAmdDhAw#hl=en&safe=off&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=bison+jaw+bone&oq=bison+jaw+bone&gs_l=img.3..0i24.15377.16094.0.16575.5.5.0.0.0.1.130.440.4j1.5.0...0.0.B3NY5V0OS_c&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=369de136687a602f&biw=1499&bih=737

Here is some cow.

https://www.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&safe=off&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&q=moose+jaw+bone&oq=moose+jaw+bone&gs_l=img.3..0.1684.4784.0.4954.14.12.0.2.2.0.110.1183.5j7.12.0...0.0.nw5TXq1XjG4&biw=1499&bih=737&sei=H730T-XUDc3tqQGAmdDhAw#hl=en&safe=off&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=cow+jaw+bone&oq=cow+jaw+bone&gs_l=img.12..0.57438.57837.2.59569.3.3.0.0.0.0.86.243.3.3.0...0.0.xU8HzAtKSAM&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=369de136687a602f&biw=1499&bih=737

I am leaning toward bison on this.

[Rob Russell]

I happened upon this while doing some searching on google. A fellow member, Harry Pristis, IDed another bison jaw that was found in Oklahoma. He mentions the stylid being an indicator to bison genus. Do I see stylids on these teeth? ... Here's the link. http://www.lakeneosho.org/Bison/index.html#7

[Raistlin]

I think there is one just above the tip of your thumb nail.

Again though I am not that good at this I am just going by what looks simular to me. Sorry I am not much more help.

[Harry Pristis]

I happened upon this while doing some searching on google. A fellow member, Harry Pristis, IDed another bison jaw that was found in Oklahoma. He mentions the stylid being an indicator to bison genus. Do I see stylids on these teeth? ... Here's the link. http://www.lakeneosh...on/index.html#7

You must be careful in reading these remarks if you're looking for a distinction between bison and cow stylids. I did not write, nor intend to say, that bison teeth have isolated stylids and cows do not. Some cow teeth DO have isolated stylids.

What is reliable is that bison teeth TEND to be larger and more massive, and the isolated stylids are correspondingly more massive . . . bound tighter to the tooth and with thicker enamel walls.

I wish there were a more obvious and reliable distinction between bison teeth and cow teeth. I just can't say with these two jaws. Here's a table of bison tooth measurements which may suggest an ID to you:

[Harry Pristis]

For comparison:

[Rob Russell]

Thank you, Harry, for taking time to read and reply to my post, and for the clarification on the presence of stylids in both species. Would you, or any other willing member, be able to tell me what teeth I have here? I haven't a clue. I'd like to compare the numbers you've posted with the size of these teeth. Perhaps an additional photo would be needed showing exact tooth location?

[Harry Pristis]

Thank you, Harry, for taking time to read and reply to my post, and for the clarification on the presence of stylids in both species. Would you, or any other willing member, be able to tell me what teeth I have here? I haven't a clue. I'd like to compare the numbers you've posted with the size of these teeth. Perhaps an additional photo would be needed showing exact tooth location?

Count from back to front of the jaw. There are three molars and three premolars (the first premolar is lost in these bovids), so the count goes m3-m2-m1-p4-p3-p2.

You know which tooth is the m3 because it is distinctive from the other cheek teeth in having a talonid or lobe posterior to the rear cusp. The m3 is featured in three of the four images I posted "for comparison."

[Fossils4U]

Just a guss but Honestly what I think you have there might be Camel!

The simularitys in the enamel lines on the grinding plates as well as the size and shape. From the family Camelidae.

Quite possibly Hemiauchenia maxilla. Pleistocene. Hemiauchenia had finely ridged ( crenelated ) teeth and was a

larger animal than Paleolama. The simularitys in the teeth are almost a spot on match. Hope this helps to find a

identification for your great finds.

[Rob Russell]

Wow fossils4U! Id love to hear other members who are familiar with camel material weigh in on your assessment!

Thanks Harry. I'll do some measuring and comparing this evening. Along with carefully removing what algae and debris I can from the teeth. If they clean up any better than the way they are now I'll repicture them. I did find a single tooth and a metacarpal bone not far up river from these two objects. I'll post them with whatever pictures I may retake of the jaw bones, and measurements. Thanks again!

[PrehistoricFlorida]

Just a guss but Honestly what I think you have there might be Camel!

The simularitys in the enamel lines on the grinding plates as well as the size and shape. From the family Camelidae.

Quite possibly Hemiauchenia maxilla. Pleistocene. Hemiauchenia had finely ridged ( crenelated ) teeth and was a

larger animal than Paleolama. The simularitys in the teeth are almost a spot on match. Hope this helps to find a

identification for your great finds.

Sorry, no, they're not camel. Camelids do not have stylids which are present on the teeth in these mandibles. These mandibles are bovine.

Edited July 6, 2012 by PrehistoricFlorida

[Fossils4U]

I have a Bison Skull hanging on my wall. As you can see in the pictures each tooth has 5 points to the tooth. It repeats along the line of every tooth. In the pictures the patern just does not match! I hope this helps!

Sorry, no, they're not camel. Camelids do not have stylids which are present on the teeth in these mandibles. These mandibles are bovine.

[Fossils4U]

Hear are some pictures of the Hemiauchenia maxilla = Camel.

The irregular pattern along the tooth line of the jaw circled in the picture is what has me leaning more towards some sort of camel and just the overal shape of the tooth!

The one tooth on the jaw is a exact match to the one in this picture! Also I do not see any Isolated Stylids on the teeth. This animal lived a good full life! The teeth have plenty of wear and tear and are fully developed as well. The Isolated Stylids would be very visable. Hope this helps. By the way GREAT FINDS...,

Edited July 6, 2012 by Fossils4U

[Fossils4U]

I do not see the Isolated Stylids! Needs to be cleaned and more pictures I think! Just trying to help!

Sorry, no, they're not camel. Camelids do not have stylids which are present on the teeth in these mandibles. These mandibles are bovine.

[Fossils4U]

Hear is another Bison jaw picture for reference. You can clearly see the Isolated Stylids on the teeth.

[Fossils4U]

Thank You I hope what I posted helps! GREAT FINDS by the way.

Wow fossils4U! Id love to hear other members who are familiar with camel material weigh in on your assessment!

Thanks Harry. I'll do some measuring and comparing this evening. Along with carefully removing what algae and debris I can from the teeth. If they clean up any better than the way they are now I'll repicture them. I did find a single tooth and a metacarpal bone not far up river from these two objects. I'll post them with whatever pictures I may retake of the jaw bones, and measurements. Thanks again!

[Harry Pristis]

Just a guss but Honestly what I think you have there might be Camel!

The simularitys in the enamel lines on the grinding plates as well as the size and shape. From the family Camelidae.

Quite possibly Hemiauchenia maxilla. Pleistocene. Hemiauchenia had finely ridged ( crenelated ) teeth and was a

larger animal than Paleolama. The simularitys in the teeth are almost a spot on match. Hope this helps to find a

identification for your great finds.

Whoa! Slow down a bit. There is no need to guess the affinity of these jaws . . . they are bovid, definitely NOT camel. To the practiced eye, these jaws bear little resemblance to camel.

The "Hemiauchenia maxilla" reference is a puzzler. There is no such species as as H. maxilla, if that is what you meant. Even if you were simply underlining for emphasis, the jaws in question are NOT MAXILLAE, they are mandibles.

Upper and lower teeth are different from each other so such comparisons are not useful here.

(I believe that you have mis-identified the taxon with the crenulations on the tooth enamel . . . that would be Palaeolama.)

[Fossils4U]

OK! Just trying to stir up the pot a litle! It worked! I am no profesional!

Whoa! Slow down a bit. There is no need to guess the affinity of these jaws . . . they are bovid, definitely NOT camel. To the practiced eye, these jaws bear little resemblance to camel.

The "Hemiauchenia maxilla" reference is a puzzler. There is no such species as as H. maxilla, if that is what you meant. Even if you were simply underlining for emphasis, the jaws in question are NOT MAXILLAE, they are mandibles.

Upper and lower teeth are different from each other so such comparisons are not useful here.

(I believe that you have mis-identified the taxon with the crenulations on the tooth enamel . . . that would be Palaeolama.)

[Rob Russell]

Thanks once again for the comments guy's. PF, thanks for pointing out the absence of stylids on camel teeth. That stopped my searching before it began.

I've taken measurements of the teeth present in the mandibles. Right down the jaw they measure about 12.7 mm less than the numbers on the chart that harry provided. That seems substantial when talking about a tooth. I took a better look at the stylids present on the teeth. They definitely have separate channels running down past where I cant see them in the jaw, but they don't appear to be as robust as the ones I've seen in other examples. At this point I don't believe additional pics are required. Unless someone can convince me that adult bison teeth can be that small I'll reside with cow. Oh, by the way, after doing some searching the metacarpal bone I may post separately. It's most likely horse, but I'm merely a student here, so who knows! Thanks again for the help!

[squalicorax]

Nice Jaws Rob!

[Rob Russell]

Thanks Nathan!