Waco Lake Texas Trip For Forum Members

[MikeD]

Can someone who's been there confirm that this is the meeting point on Google Maps?

It looks like Steinbeck Bend Rd continues on a little ways after the sharp right, but I'm guessing from the instructions that this group of buildings is where we're meeting:

http://maps.google.com/maps/mm?ie=UTF8&amp...mp;t=h&z=17

(Isn't Google maps an amazing invention? I can even see my neighbor's weed-green pool in our neighborhood!)

That looks like it. The address is 3801 Zoo Park Dr.

[Oh-Man]

That looks like it. The address is 3801 Zoo Park Dr.

Yes, that's it! I'll copy the link at put it at the top.

We may have more than 25 folks show up at this point.

Good feedback for the FORUM!!

[MikeD]

Whoo! Hoo! At least the weather forecast is good for now. I'll bring my camera and tripod for a group picture.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

The Waco Pit is big enough that you'll wear out your knees before you can properly hunt a fraction of it. Again the key is not so much where you hunt it, but how you hunt it. Stay low and move slow.

I've been to Brownwood and done well before, and done poorly as well. The key is to get there right after a winter ice wedge snaps off a big slab of the massive limestone overburden, then getting there before the clubs. Finding the layers of spines broken in section is easy, but extracting a sizeable slab intact is anything but easy. Like I said, if the overburden drops into the gorge the top of the uppermost echinoid layer is exposed, facilitating recovery of intact slabs. Once you find a spot there you like you tend to hang right there for hours methodically working on your slab. You have to stand on a steep slope while digging, not exactly an easy arrangement. One time I went there and really slammed the echies. I think I got 70 including a slab of 20. I showed up prepared though with a dolly, tote box, aluminum foil, 529 glue, 2 handed pick, small hand tools, etc. Again, you need to beat the groups in there because they'll take all the easy stuff if you let them. As for the Wilson Clay Pit, it is my feeling that the place is overhunted and not worth the drive. The clubs have been slamming the place way faster than it can weather. I guess if you live nearby its no big deal, but if you live far away like me and size up the cost/benefit ratio, finding other sites closer to home becomes more attractive.

[Oh-Man]

I'll agree with Dan on both points.

Th spill way has good potential, but needs to be dry. "Gravity is not your friend" and at the spillway the potential for a 23 ton limestone slab dropping on you is a real threat.

MikeD and I were there last spring, but as he mentioned it was wet and thus pretty hard to get much out intact. I still got one nice starter specimen that amounts to about 2/3rds of an echie.

Wilson's Clay pit has tons of potential - literally, but it is over hunted and you can find tons of crinoid stems in other places around there without having to risk get gored by some Longhorn cattle running through the pit. MikeD was a lot closer to them than I was when they came bumbling through the pit.

On a side note some of the horn coral we picked up off PR 15 has been polished into some interesting jewelry pieces.

The Waco Pit is big enough that you'll wear out your knees before you can properly hunt a fraction of it. Again the key is not so much where you hunt it, but how you hunt it. Stay low and move slow.

I've been to Brownwood and done well before, and done poorly as well. The key is to get there right after a winter ice wedge snaps off a big slab of the massive limestone overburden, then getting there before the clubs. Finding the layers of spines broken in section is easy, but extracting a sizeable slab intact is anything but easy. Like I said, if the overburden drops into the gorge the top of the uppermost echinoid layer is exposed, facilitating recovery of intact slabs. Once you find a spot there you like you tend to hang right there for hours methodically working on your slab. You have to stand on a steep slope while digging, not exactly an easy arrangement. One time I went there and really slammed the echies. I think I got 70 including a slab of 20. I showed up prepared though with a dolly, tote box, aluminum foil, 529 glue, 2 handed pick, small hand tools, etc. Again, you need to beat the groups in there because they'll take all the easy stuff if you let them. As for the Wilson Clay Pit, it is my feeling that the place is overhunted and not worth the drive. The clubs have been slamming the place way faster than it can weather. I guess if you live nearby its no big deal, but if you live far away like me and size up the cost/benefit ratio, finding other sites closer to home becomes more attractive.

[Tom]

I'll just borrow one of those signs off the back of a gravel truck "STAY BACK 200 FEET!" Hahaha. I've actually been followed around so much in the past that I couldn't even go back in the weeds alone to take a leak!

Okay, so I'll say it in so many words in broken english. Tell the other guys that it was never me who followed you around before I die of shame!

[catfuraplenty]

I wanna come too. But then you knew I would. 2 aboard, me and the big guy (he likes to sit and collect). Can canines come? Just a question, no pressure but she carries fossils and rocks very well. She's come before on other trips and is a model citizen. Works all day for a cookie (ask Neal).

Thanks for this invite. Will check back here later.

The Crazy Cat Woman who found PALM WOOD! hahahaha yes, you missed it. Around the lake, secret location....shhh

[Uncle Siphuncle]

Mike

What is the genus of the little kiwiensis echie found there? I've taken 2.

Jax:

The Lake Brownwood Spillway is a very interesting exposure because of the unusual preservation and the unusual associations of terrestrial flora and marine fauna. There aren't many localities where you can collect fern fronds and plant debris and normal marine life (brachiopods, bryozoa, Paleozoic shark teeth, echinoids, starfish, ophiuroids, crinoids and even edrioasteroids!!!) from the same strata.

As of my last visit to the spillway in 2003, the clay strata that the echinoids come from was severely undercut by weathering and from excavation by collectors. The overlying limestone is massive and heavy and there are large chunks of the limestone weighing tons that have broken off and fallen. This area requires very careful collecting due to the danger. It's surprising that the Army Corps of Engineers has not required hard hats for the spillway area...of course, I don't know that a hard hat would help much if a 3 ton chunk of limestone were to fall on top of you! This is definitely not a location for children or for those that are older or not in very good physical condition!

The danger aside, there are some excellent fossils found in the black shales at the Brownwood Spillway locality. There are 3 different echinoids that have been identified to date from the spillway, of which the most common is Archaeocidaris brownwoodensis, the form that is commonly listed for sale on eBay and through various fossil dealers. There are several species of crinoids that may be found there as well, and some of those preserve the entire crown and stem inluding the cirri. The crinoids are uncommon. The asteroids and the ophiuroids are rare. The most fascinating to me are the edrioasteroids because they extend the group from the Mississippian into the upper Carboniferous. The edrioasteroid that is present is Parapostibulla murphyi Sumrall, et al, 2000, named for yours truly based on 2 specimens that I found in the mid 1990's. One of the specimens (the largest and best preserved) became the holotype and the other became a paratype. These specimens represented a new subfamily and genus as well as species. See "The Systematics of Postibullinid Edrioasteroids", Journal of Paleontology, Janurary 2000. According to Dr. Sprinkle at UT, there have been a few other Parapostibulla murphyi that have been found. All of the edrioasteroids found so far were attached to Composita subtilita brachiopods. I guess the Composita brachiopods were the only smooth hard surface of enough area to support epibonts. Spirorbis worm tubes and small brachiopod sprat are also found on the Composita brachiopods.

Regards,

Mike

[Uncle Siphuncle]

No Tom, my esteemed colleague of the field, it wasn't you.

Okay, so I'll say it in so many words in broken english. Tell the other guys that it was never me who followed you around before I die of shame!

[Uncle Siphuncle]

Well Owen, I called that quarry in Crawford today and was told there was "absolutely no chance" of us getting in. The guy hung up on me faster than a telemarketer. I guess I've lost my edge!

[Mike Murphy]

Dan:

The other echinoid that is found in the Winchell Fomation at the spillway is Elliptechinus kiwiensis Schneider et al, 2005. Archaeocidaris brownwoodensis and Archaeocidaris apheles are the archaeocidarids that are found in the spillway. Although I have seen several of the Elliptechinus echinoids, I have never collected any of them. I have collected both of the archaeocidarids, however. I have also collected Archaeocidaris brownwoodensis from the Colony Creek Shale at Robinson Point. One is partially articulated, preserving a portion of an ambulacrum, while the other was flattened but articulated, preserving the ambulacra. Dr. Sprinkle at UT has asked to borrow that specimen (seen in Chuck Finsley's book) to describe the ambulaca.

Regards,

Mike

[Uncle Siphuncle]

Mike

How do you tell the Archies apart? I may have both.

Dan:

The other echinoid that is found in the Winchell Fomation at the spillway is Elliptechinus kiwiensis Schneider et al, 2005. Archaeocidaris brownwoodensis and Archaeocidaris apheles are the archaeocidarids that are found in the spillway. Although I have seen several of the Elliptechinus echinoids, I have never collected any of them. I have collected both of the archaeocidarids, however. I have also collected Archaeocidaris brownwoodensis from the Colony Creek Shale at Robinson Point. One is partially articulated, preserving a portion of an ambulacrum, while the other was flattened but articulated, preserving the ambulacra. Dr. Sprinkle at UT has asked to borrow that specimen (seen in Chuck Finsley's book) to describe the ambulaca.

Regards,

Mike

[jpbowden]

Wow, looks like more rain for Waco, hit here about 2 hours ago and looks like it did the same there!

[jax]

Since i've never been to this pit, I guess I better ask. Do I need anything special, such as hard hard, steel boots, saftey vest??

[Oh-Man]

Well Owen, I called that quarry in Crawford today and was told there was "absolutely no chance" of us getting in. The guy hung up on me faster than a telemarketer. I guess I've lost my edge!

Dan,

Bummer - they are probably using lots of illegals or something. We could work our way up stream from the ranch if we really wanted to...

Maybe next time.

I wonder if we could get onto the Chemical Lime plant/quarry in Clifton? Not nearly as close, but still food for thought.

I'd just want to get a bunch of eyes onto the ranch first to see if there is anything actually there.

O

[Oh-Man]

Since i've never been to this pit, I guess I better ask. Do I need anything special, such as hard hard, steel boots, saftey vest??

JAX,

Most important is to bring knee pads and maybe elbow pads. And something to take care of small fossils.

[Oh-Man]

I wanna come too. But then you knew I would. 2 aboard, me and the big guy (he likes to sit and collect). Can canines come? Just a question, no pressure but she carries fossils and rocks very well. She's come before on other trips and is a model citizen. Works all day for a cookie (ask Neal).

Thanks for this invite. Will check back here later.

The Crazy Cat Woman who found PALM WOOD! hahahaha yes, you missed it. Around the lake, secret location....shhh

We'll bring some pet wood along to show off. Also, is Diane likely to join, too?

This place should be perfect for the big guy - he should bring a beach umbrella to hold over you though!!! ha ha ha

[catfuraplenty]

Wow, looks like more rain for Waco, hit here about 2 hours ago and looks like it did the same there!

Rain washes out the best fossils. Plus, what is a trip without getting down and dirty.

[Mike Murphy]

Dan:

The only significant difference that I see between Archaeocidaris brownwoodensis and Archaeocidaris apheles is in the primary spines. The primary spines on A. brownwoodensis are triangular, solid and spinose. The primary spines on A. apheles are round, smooth and hollow. Because the spines are hollow, many of them will be flattened and cracked. The one A. apheles that I have found is small and in poor condition, and nearly all of the spines are flattened. Some are cracked open, revealing the hollow core. According to Schneider, Sprinkle and Ryder, the Archaeocidaris apheles is quite uncommon. Out of several hundred archaeocidarids observed by the authors, only 4 were A. apheles. Elliptechinus kiwiensis is more common than A. apheles.

I have an extra glossy copy of the paper, "Pennsylvanian (Late Carboniferous) Echinoids from the Winchell Formation, North-Central Texas, USA", Texas Memorial Museum New Series Publication Number 87, 2005. I was given 2 copies of the paper by Dr. Sprinkle for lending him specimens. The paper is also found in Journal of Paleontology, Issue 79-4, 2005, on pages 745-762. If you would like the copy, I will bring it down to Waco with me. Of course the copy would be expensive, say maybe a nice Goniophorus scotti or maybe an ophiuroid. Actually, just kidding!!! I will give it to you because you are so interested and because I am such a nice guy.

Regards,

Mike

[catfuraplenty]

We'll bring some pet wood along to show off. Also, is Diane likely to join, too?

This place should be perfect for the big guy - he should bring a beach umbrella to hold over you though!!! ha ha ha

I'd comment on the pet wood but it would get me in trouble. LOL

Diane isn't coming, she's busy putting some new blue tarps on her roof. She, I and Beverly are trying to get together in Nov. to go to the DeRitter show (we went last year and it was a nice small show, they will be hosting the AFMS in 2009)

and do some more wood hunting around Sabine. You are welcome to grab a tent and camp out with us 'women folk,' but I warn you, we are tough, rough and stay up late yelling from tent to tent. Just like us, even sleeping we talk. LOL

Umbrella? No, no, no, not for me. I got my lucky fossil finding hat, but for my delicate flower of a hubby ::egregious grin:: he might need the umbrella. I nearly lost him to the heat at Texoma, while I was asking him to help me hack out that ammonite. We like getting rained on. It's my natural habitat.

Read where some people were discussing medical assistance in earlier posts, big guy will come in handy for that, especially for anyone dropping over from a heart problem. I do all the bug and snake handling. That's my job as the dedicated 'spider' person in our household.

Oh, tag number: V88GRL, Texas tag

[JohnJ]

Mike M., Lance, Dan, etc.

What would be considered rare or uncommon (but possible) finds for the pit and spillway?

Mike D., since my fossil radar will be turned up pretty high, don't be surprised by any numbness or loss of sight you experience when hunting near me. I spoke to the manufacturer and he assures me it's temporary.

[Mike Murphy]

John:

In my opinion (and mine alone), the rarest fossils in the Pennsylvanian Winchell Formation in the spillway would be the edrioasteroid Parapostibulla murphyi, complete crinoid crowns with stem and cirri, complete asteroids and ophiuroids and all echinoids except Archaeocidaris brownwoodensis.

In the Wilson Clay Quarry, both lowermost Permian and uppermost Pensylvanian are present. The rarer fossils would be complete trilobites from both the Permian and Pennsylvanian (I have found only Ditomopyge pygidia in the Pennsylvanian), vertebrate material other than petalodont teeth; complete teeth are premium, and complete crinoid calyces. There are numerous crinoid cups (primarily Delocrinus), but only a few calyces have been pulled out of the quarry.

Regarding the Permian trilobites and crinoids, I have not found any in the pit, but I did collect several complete enrolled Ditomopyge trilobites and a couple of crinoid crowns from the Camp Colorado limestone about a mile west of the quarry towards Coleman. The locality is gone now since the county or state highway department graded and grassed over the small roadcut of yellow nodular to thin bedded shale and limestone.

I have not been to either the Lake Brownwood Spillway or the Wilson Clay Quarry in several years. i have heard that the pit has been fairly heavily collected by individuals and clubs. Dan may be able to provide additional rare or uncommon fossils that may be found in both localities.

Regards,

Mike

[Uncle Siphuncle]

Thanks Mike. I probably have all A. brownwoodensis at this point. A guy from the DPS called me last night and it sounds like they may be cooking up a trip to the spillway between now and spring. Since the site is well known I told him everything I know that could help lead to their success, namely timing and outlining the hard work involved in extracting the biggest slab possible. He wanted to take his 6 year old son. I described the site and told him I wouldn't take my 6 year old there.

Dan:

The only significant difference that I see between Archaeocidaris brownwoodensis and Archaeocidaris apheles is in the primary spines. The primary spines on A. brownwoodensis are triangular, solid and spinose. The primary spines on A. apheles are round, smooth and hollow. Because the spines are hollow, many of them will be flattened and cracked. The one A. apheles that I have found is small and in poor condition, and nearly all of the spines are flattened. Some are cracked open, revealing the hollow core. According to Schneider, Sprinkle and Ryder, the Archaeocidaris apheles is quite uncommon. Out of several hundred archaeocidarids observed by the authors, only 4 were A. apheles. Elliptechinus kiwiensis is more common than A. apheles.

I have an extra glossy copy of the paper, "Pennsylvanian (Late Carboniferous) Echinoids from the Winchell Formation, North-Central Texas, USA", Texas Memorial Museum New Series Publication Number 87, 2005. I was given 2 copies of the paper by Dr. Sprinkle for lending him specimens. The paper is also found in Journal of Paleontology, Issue 79-4, 2005, on pages 745-762. If you would like the copy, I will bring it down to Waco with me. Of course the copy would be expensive, say maybe a nice Goniophorus scotti or maybe an ophiuroid. Actually, just kidding!!! I will give it to you because you are so interested and because I am such a nice guy.

Regards,

Mike

[Uncle Siphuncle]

O

I've been to Chemical Lime in the past. I found pyritized echinoids and Oxtytropidoceras ammonites in the Kiamichi fm, Paraisurus and possibly Leptostyrax teeth at the upper contact of the Kiamichi, and Eopachydiscus and Mortoniceras ammonites in the Duck Creek. While it would be fun to get in there, I see two strikes against the site. First of all the clubs have been slamming the place lately. Recent rains might turn up some echies and such but I doubt that any big ammonites have had a chance to weather out. Secondly it seems that access has begun to tighten up lately. I think the DPS had to go through some formalities with the waiver, if memory serves they required notarization of the signed form (I may be mixed up with another quarry though). Whatever the story, the DPS had to go through some awkward dance with quarry management that took time, time we don't have at this point. Does anyone know more about this place? I'd be happy to go if someone could provide easy inroads to it.

Another quarry I hit with the DPS 5 years ago was Arnold Crushed Stone in Blum. I remember many folks finding Ophiurids (brittlestars) while climbing around on the big weathering blocks of yellow Edwards limestone. I didn't get one, but I did manage a couple nice Oxys from the Kiamichi. I haven't heard of anyone hitting this place in a while, and it may be too far out of range to be feasible, but I mention it here nonetheless.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

At the Brownwood Spillway I've found Deltodus and Petalodus teeth albeit small, a spine from shark fin (cephalic spine?), and a couple cool little grape sized kiwiensis echies. One of my buddies who has collected the site more extensively has taken several articutlated crinoids. At the Wilson Clay Pit I've taken one nice Petalodus in matrix, the one shown in the rotating logo images, in addition to a killer little Peripristis semicircularis tooth, Deltodus, and other small teeth.

Rereading your query John I wasn't sure if you were asking for rare finds at Brownwood or Waco, so I'll answer for Waco now. The uncommon stuff in my opinion includes rhyncholites (squid beaks, often found as upper or lower parts of the dentition), juvenile Goniophorus echinoids on beds of spines (I have some flakes of matrix with hundreds of tests each roughly .060 inch diameter), mortality slabs of brittlestars, significant portions of asteroid starfish (a complete arm or better), complete (but often crushed) Coenholectypus echinoids, and Ptychodus teeth. Cretolamna and pycnodont teeth should show up. Although the ammonites are the most common find I still like picking up the bigger and better ones. I always like finding those nice Goniophorus echinoids too.

John:

In my opinion (and mine alone), the rarest fossils in the Pennsylvanian Winchell Formation in the spillway would be the edrioasteroid Parapostibulla murphyi, complete crinoid crowns with stem and cirri, complete asteroids and ophiuroids and all echinoids except Archaeocidaris brownwoodensis.

In the Wilson Clay Quarry, both lowermost Permian and uppermost Pensylvanian are present. The rarer fossils would be complete trilobites from both the Permian and Pennsylvanian (I have found only Ditomopyge pygidia in the Pennsylvanian), vertebrate material other than petalodont teeth; complete teeth are premium, and complete crinoid calyces. There are numerous crinoid cups (primarily Delocrinus), but only a few calyces have been pulled out of the quarry.

Regarding the Permian trilobites and crinoids, I have not found any in the pit, but I did collect several complete enrolled Ditomopyge trilobites and a couple of crinoid crowns from the Camp Colorado limestone about a mile west of the quarry towards Coleman. The locality is gone now since the county or state highway department graded and grassed over the small roadcut of yellow nodular to thin bedded shale and limestone.

I have not been to either the Lake Brownwood Spillway or the Wilson Clay Quarry in several years. i have heard that the pit has been fairly heavily collected by individuals and clubs. Dan may be able to provide additional rare or uncommon fossils that may be found in both localities.

Regards,

Mike