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Manning Canyon Shale - Fossil Plants - Utah


alittlegoofy1932

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Hi all, new to the group.

I have had these fossil plants for about 4 years and we at first thought that this first one was a Cordaite, but now I am not so sure. Sorry that there is noting in the pictures to give a size reference, but the entire slab is approx. 8" x 9", with the fossil plant itself being approx. 7 3/4" long and 1/2" wide. The reason I am questioning the cordaite is that being as it is as long as it is, shouldn't there be some joint nodes? The examples I saw at the local museum show joint nodes (as they refer to them) every couple inches, sort of like one would see in bamboo, but my fossil shows nothing like that.

The first picture shows the entire slab, and you can see the fossil plant running the length of the slab top to bottom. The second picture shows a close up of the texture of the fossil.

The paleobotonist is retired and comes in once a week, and it is hard for me to get into the museum when he is there due to my having to be at work, so any help you can give would be great. I have 2 other fossil plants to identify also, so will post them seperate.

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Okay second fossil plant to be identified, taken from the same location. This one is smaller than the first, the total size is approx 2 1/2" x 2 1/2".

The first picture shows the entire fossil, and the secord is a closer view of it, I especially like how you can see the blades/branches/? crossing one another toward the left side on the second picture. To me, and due to the size, I am thinking grass, but then again thats why I came to you, as I have no idea. For some reason the pictures keep switching, but I think you can figure out which picture is which, I have tried several times to get them fixed but they keep switching back.

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Welcome to the forum.

There are several people who know a lot about plants who post here, hopefully someone will chime in. However, everyone will benefit from knowing the age of your specimens. I believe Cordites is a Carboniferous plant, and grass didn't evolve (or at least become common enough to occur as leaf fossils, as opposed to pollen) until the Eocene. So, is "Manning Canyon shale" a rock formation or just a locality, and what is the age of this shale deposit?

Don

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My 3rd mystery fossil plant taken from the Manning Canyon Shale of Utah.

Okay this one is approx 5 3/4" x 5" square and approx 1" thick. I will tell you what it looks like to me, to me it looks to be part of a tree trunk, with the texture/ lines such as you would see on a palm type tree (you know the cross "x" pattern). You can see the lines/pattern in the first picture, they are pretty obvious, the fossil has a slight curve to it, such as one would expect to find when you picked up shed bark or branches, as if this "tree" fell and was petrified/fossilized leaving the curve of the shape of the trunk/tree. The second picture shows the fossil from the top/end, this picture, at least to me, shows what look to be growth bands, such as you would see in a tree. Looking just right of center, you can see what I am talking about, you can see a lighter color (I will call tan) section, that appears to me (as do all the tan parts) to go the width of the fossil, and appear to have a slight seperation such as you would see in growth rings of a tree.

But then again, I really don't know, thats why I am coming to you to help me identify exactly what I have. Thank you for any assistance you can give, I collected all these about 4 years ago as part of a Cub Scout/Scout Expo project and have wondered ever since exactly what I had, so I am excited to find out.

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Ah, I knew I forgot something. The approx age of these fossils from what I understand is the mississippian pennsylannian era (hope I got that right, I'm new to this so bare with me) and the Manning Canyon Shale is a formation located and exposed in several places in Utah. My particular fossils came from near Utah Lake, located near Provo, Utah (about 30 miles south of the Great Salt Lake and Salt Lake City, Utah). Hope that helps in identifying them, as I said I'm new to this so if I forgot something let me know and I'll get or give more info.

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The Manning Canyon Shale is, I believe, Upper Mississippian (and maybe Lower Pennsylvanian).

If the first one is a leaf (as I suspect), there is no problem with a lack of nodes or scars.

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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  • 3 months later...

I too, have found a formation like the one posted on the right. There is also one I found that looks like it has the "knuckles" that bamboo has. We are in central Alabama near the Cahaba River. Last week, I found a fossil that had several tiny ferns in them...about 3/4 inch long. The fossil with the striations is about 6 inches long. They are imprinted in black shale.(I think) The rock is very fragile and crumbles easily. Could these be bamboo or some form of cane?

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Cordaites has my vote, assuming the formation is Pennsylvanian.

There is also one I found that looks like it has the "knuckles" that bamboo has. We are in central Alabama near the Cahaba River. ... The fossil with the striations is about 6 inches long. .... Could these be bamboo or some form of cane?

The 'bamboo' is most likely Calamites.

Context is critical.

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I understand the doubts of alittlegoofy concerning Cordaites. I agree that Cordaites is a possible ID, but there are actually alternatives. The pattern of the striations is rather irregular. The axes of some carboniferous ferns / seed ferns are also striated in an irregular way, e.g. Aulacopteris, some neuropterids and alethopterids. I have here in front of me a textbook from REMY and REMY 1997 (Die Floren des Erdaltertums, page 116, picture 33a) - it looks like your specimen; however, this is Aulacopteris from Westfalian D, younger than your specimen, and I regard it only as an example that axes of ferns or seed ferns can mimic Cordaites leaves.

Your specimen is rather slender for a Cordaites leaf, it is exactly straight (if it is a very tiny one, I would expect that it would be comparatively short and thus the margins would converge a little bit), the striations are irregular with regard to their extent and distance, and, as you already noted, there are no dichotomies. In summary, these features make a (seed) fern axis a possibility. However, I'm not sure, but one may think in that direction.

Your second specimen may be axes of ferns or seed ferns too, possibly at the base of fronds. Some (seed) ferns had slender axes since they climbed on larger trees. In the upper carboniferous, I've seen very much stuff like your second specimen; however, I didn't pay a lot of attention to it since it is not diagnostic. It is very common together with fragments of (seed) fern fronds, and sometimes fragments of tiny twigs with fern leaflets are attached to it, so (seed) fern axes are also a possibility for your second specimen, but such axes (if preserved as compression fossils, like your specimen) miss diagnostic features so it's probably impossible to assign them to a special taxon at lower or middle ranks.

araucaria1959

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For comparison....

Cordaites sp.

Winterset Limestone, Pennsylvanian

Clay County, Missouri

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Context is critical.

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Interesting specimen with small leaves. However, a closer look at the specimen might help to see similarities or differences.

araucaria1959

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Interesting specimen with small leaves. However, a closer look at the specimen might help to see similarities or differences.

araucaria1959

I'll get pics of my specimen under the scope as soon as I can get to them.

Cordaites leaves are found in most, if not all, exposures of the Winterset Limestone across its outcrop belt through the Kansas City area. They are often associated with various marine species. In an isolated spot or two, various ferns can be found as well. If my skinny straps turn out to be something other than Cordaites, that would be an interesting bit of information to add to an already fascinating deposit.

Context is critical.

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Fine details are a bit hard to make out in the carbon films. A super close-up through the microscope:

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Area imaged:

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I'll get some close-ups with the DSLR when the sun comes out.

Context is critical.

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We are discussing here a very interesting and important question. Straight and striated structures occured often in the upper carboniferous localities where I collected fossils, and it is a problem to ID them especially when they are quite slender and not very well preserved.

I think the problem of the first specimen of alittlegoofy is still unsolved, and maybe it is insoluble without other stuff from that locality for direct comparison. I agree Cordaites it still a possibility, but with uncertainties. It would be interesting to see Cordaites leaves from the same locality which are assigned to Cordaites with certainty; this will help a lot and solve the problem.

Here are two different specimens of slender Cordaites leaves of about the same width (1 - 1,5 cm) like the specimen from alittlegoofy.

(Westphalian D, Piesberg locality, Osnabrück, Germany).

The striations are very gracile and quite regular with regard to distance between neighbouring striations and the degree of delicacy of the striations. I show two different specimens to demonstrate that this regular pattern is the rule in small (slender) leaves at that locality (Pictures 1 + 2).

Picture 3 is a wider Cordaites leaf (about 5 cm wide) from another locality, a little bit older; the pattern of the striations is quite regular too.

Picture 4 would be problematic if there wasn't the black carbonaceous layer on a small part of the fossil (width of the fossil: about 1 cm). A distinct carbonaceous layer may occur on the surface of compression fossils of seed fern axes (e.g., axes from the base of the fronds), but not on the Cordaites leaves since the latter were very thin (since the Cordaites leaves were so thin, structures or leaves which lie beneath them usually trace through the Cordaites leaf). Thus, Cordaites leaves cannot be covered by a dense and distinct carbonaceous layer as is the case in the specimen from picture 4.

(Reference: REMY and REMY, see above, page 131).

For that reason we can be sure that picture 4 is not a Cordaites leaf, and a seed fern axis is a plausible explanation. As already mentioned, axes of Alethopterids, Neuropterids or Aulacopteris, all of them belonging to the seed ferns, may have such axes. It would be interesting to know whether seed fern genera are known from your locality.

araucaria1959

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  • 1 month later...

Hi my friends

For comparison ,here is Aulacopteris of northern France (Aulacopteris vulgaris Grand'Eury, 1877. )

This bifurcate axis is in this case assigned to Neuropterid fern , you can find on the shale some genus leaf neuropteris.

Here is the link for a study of the flora of this deposit : Maning-canyon-shale , to confirm Araucaria1959 ' s purpose : the seed ferns are well represented in this site !!!

http://www.geology.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Flora-of-Manning-Canyon-Shale-Part-1-A-Lowermost-Pennsylvanian-Flora-from-the-Manning-Canyon-Shale-Utah-and-its-Stratigraphic-Significance-William-D.-Tidwell.pdf

Best regards

Bruno

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Hi My friends

Here is a striated rachis , By the presence of leaves Alethopteris we can suggest that this axis morphogenus: Aulacopteris is assigned to the genus seed ferns: Alethopteris, but this reasoning is based solely on an assertion, assumption often admitted in paleobotany..

Best regards

Bruno

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 years later...

Hi alittlegoofy1932,

The first picture looks like a Lepidophyllum leaf. Dont know about the others. The link to the BYU papers "Flora of Manning Canyon Shale, Part I, II, III" from the BYU Geology studies starting with Volume 14 Dec 1967. will give the best info. You can go to their site and order a copy of each for very cheap. Or they might be avail online for view.

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Hi alittlegoofy1932,

The first picture looks like a Lepidophyllum leaf. Dont know about the others. The link to the BYU papers "Flora of Manning Canyon Shale, Part I, II, III" from the BYU Geology studies starting with Volume 14 Dec 1967. will give the best info. You can go to their site and order a copy of each for very cheap. Or they might be avail online for view.

'alittlegoofy1932 was last active on our site almost 3 years ago. However, your advice is good for any that want to review this topic. Thanks for posting. ;)

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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