Paleontological Preservation Act Hr 554

[MikeD]

As it was explained to me tonight by Terry and others, it is up to the Secretary to determine who is qualified for a permit The bill is vague on such qualifications. Amateur collectors are not expected to qualify. Yes, teeth are included in vertebrate material. The enforcers would be current law enforcement, game wardens, park rangers, etc., many of which are not qualified to make the decision. I agree that most things don't change pertaining to federal land, but certain parts of the bill are vague and could be open to a wide variety of interpretation.

[Oh-Man]

Great comments and discussion - keep them coming.

From my point of view a well written bill that considers input from both sides of the fence would be valuable.

Ambiguous legal speak is a big part of the problem. As MikeD mentioned a game warden can tow your car off and toss you in the slammer if that's what they want to do if you're caught with a mystery tooth - could be scientifically important, but he won't know for sure.

It's hard to assume that a standard that doesn't standardize anything will be a good thing.

So - BOTTOM LINE - if you think this is a big deal then contact your elected officials. If not, then don't.

[MOROPUS]

At least is not as restrictive and old as Spanish one.You can`t pic any fossil if you have to dig! And no vertebrate fossil collection is allowed!Only those that are on surface, and common inverts, that`s why I collect shells and snails! Trade with them is totally prohibited, with penalties that goes from big amount of euros, to jail! Even if they are piked from the earth surface!

On the other hand, by this way, many big and important exposures with scientific value, were preserved, as Rubielos de Mora (Tertiary Lagerstatte on Lithographic rock, as the Green River one, but mostly with unique insects,plants, butterflies and some mammals),Murero (Cambrian Lagerstatte),or the newely discovered Cuenca sites (Cretaceous dinosaur enourmous diying place).

[oreodont]

Hi Folks,

There is a bill making the rounds in Washington that we should all contemplate. It is referenced as the "Paleontological Resources Preservation Act" HR 554. To find the bill, go to Thomas and type in HR 554 under the Bill Number. For some reason, I am not able to link to that document directly. I think that it is at least poorly drafted. I have attached a scan of the document. I suggest that if you find the bill objectionable, then contact your representative, and the sponsors of the bill.

Oreodont

[bone digger]

I have said it before, but I think it bears repeating:

unless very detailed notes on the stratigraphy, and lithology, of an outcrop(including the exact position, and orientation) are noted, the scientific value of a piece is greatly diminished.

Do you number and catalog all your fossils, or just the ones you think may be important. I for one think it is a huge waste of time to catalog every single little common specimen I pick up. I do however keep records of anything unusual, rare, or that I can't identify.

[Guest solius symbiosus]

^I catalog most of my pieces. If they are not cataloged, then they are in a drawer, or box, with pertinent data, and recorded in my notes.

If you don't catalog every thing, how do you know where it came from. One might remember for a while, but in 10, or 20 years... ?

[Guest solius symbiosus]

In an attempt to merge oreodont's topic with oh-man's, I apparently merged oh-man's w/ oreodont's. Oh-man, if you pm me the title of your topic, I will fix it. Sorry for the confusion.

[jbstedman]

For me, in the final analysis, I think that we amateur collectors need to be careful in reaching conclusions about the legislation and, particularly, about entering the fight in opposition.

It would appear that, among the key forces leading the opposition to the legislation, are commercial fossil collectors (for example, the dissenting members of the House Committee on Natural Resources inserted into the committee report a copy of a letter in opposition from the Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences, which represents commercial fossil collectors). The Department of Interior's 2000 report shows that the commercial position regarding collecting on federal land was considered but rejected, not only by involved federal agencies, but also generally by the public, as reflected by the comments received in the report writing process.

Not sure I want to carry water for commercial fossil collectors trying to get access to federal land.

[Auspex]

OK, here is my semantic nit-pick: "Federal Land" is my land, and yours, and yours, and yours too. The government is charged with managing it for the common weal; it does not own it. Within the phrase "Federal Land", there is a sliding baseline at work that makes the government's job easier, but robs us, over time, of our land. It is "Federally Administrated" public land, and the government should answer to the people for how it is managed. (Not that fossil collectors will fare any better in this light, since we are a minority, but at least the land will remain in the public domain).

I feel better now; thanks.

[JohnJ]

OK, here is my semantic nit-pick: "Federal Land" is my land, and yours, and yours, and yours too. The government is charged with managing it for the common weal; it does not own it. Within the phrase "Federal Land", there is a sliding baseline at work that makes the government's job easier, but robs us, over time, of our land. It is "Federally Administrated" public land, and the government should answer to the people for how it is managed. (Not that fossil collectors will fare any better in this light, since we are a minority, but at least the land will remain in the public domain).

I feel better now; thanks.

Well said, Auspex, but oft forgotten....

[lawooten]

To all AFMS/CFMS Clubs and Rockhounds:

It has been reported and confirmed that the Omnibus Land Bill of 2008 S. 3213 now includes within its pages the following bill introduced during the 110th Congressional Session:

H.R. 554: Paleontological Resources Preservation Act

Introduced by James McGovern [D-MA]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-554

has been attached to the:

Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2008: S. 3213

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-3213

This bill will designate certain land as components of the National Wilderness Preservation System, to authorize certain programs and activities in the Department of the Interior and the Department of Agriculture, and for other purposes.

Below are the sub-paragraph Titles of S. 3213 that relate to H.R. 554: Paleontological Resources Preservation Act. Attached to this email is the actual Subtitle E from the Omnibus Land Management Bill.

Subtitle E--Paleontological Resources Preservation [PDF FILE ATTACHED ]

Sec. 641. Definitions.

Sec. 642. Management.

Sec. 643. Public awareness and education program.

Sec. 644. Collection of paleontological resources.

Sec. 645. Curation of resources.

Sec. 646. Prohibited acts; criminal penalties.

Sec. 647. Civil penalties.

Sec. 648. Rewards and forfeiture.

Sec. 649. Confidentiality.

Sec. 650. Regulations.

Sec. 651. Savings provisions.

Sec. 652. Authorization of appropriations.

Now not only do we have to work to defeat HR 554, but now S. 3213 Subtitle E. If either bill passes we loose the right to collect, own, show, etc., Vertebrate fossils found on United States of America Public Land. Further more it will be up to you to show proof of acquisition for the fossil or fossil fragments.

It might not get passed during the lame duck congress, but I can assure you it will get passed right after the first of the year by the democratic congress. If these bills are passed they will really be a determent to all of our collecting not only in California, but all across the United States of America.

Time is running out for any kind of meaningful commit to our legislators. We all need to read the bills and be informed. We all need to write, call, email or fax the people in Washington and ask them to vote NO on the above bills. The more negative responses they have received the more likely they may to be swayed to stop their passage.

The CFMS and AFMS can not issue a position statement on political issues because of their tax status, therefore all position statements on political issues must be made as individuals and not related to or reference to any of the Federations.

The bills listed below are still on the track to becoming law, but have not been added to the Omnibus Land Bill of 2008 as of this mailing.

S. 493: California Wild Heritage Act of 2007

Introduced by B. Boxer [D- CA]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-493

S. 3069: Eastern Sierra and Northern San Gabriel Wild Heritage Act

Introduced by B. Boxer [D- CA]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-3069

H.R. 6156: Eastern Sierra and Northern San Gabriel Wild Heritage Act

Introduced by Howard McKeon [R-CA]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-6156

Contact your legislators and make your voice be heard. Keep our public lands open to the public.

Please send this information to other clubs and individuals who need to know the story. Please include all or part in your newsletters. Please get the word out.

Thank you again for your time.

John Martin

AFMS Conservation & Legislation Committee

CFMS PLAC South 2005-2008

Palmdale Gem and Mineral Club

smartin@antelecom.net

pgmc@antelecom.net

[mommabetts]

Thanks for posting

[jbstedman]

You might want to check out the earlier thread that considered this legislation (link here).

[screweduptexan]

I thought I had saw that posted elsewhere...but still good info.

[Guest solius symbiosus]

Merged for continuity.

[tracer]

"merged for continuity"

words to live by...

[Fat Boy]

I have a couple questions...

A sharks tooth lying on the beach would not be scientifically significant, right? Who knows how it got there, where exactly it came from, etc.?

Does water = land? In Maryland, for example, you can wade/walk a shoreline and not be trespassing as long as you're below the high water mark, yet in Virginia, the low water mark is the definition (I think). What about Federal shorelines? I know that military and/or Navy facilities have restricted areas, but what about those Federal properties where there aren't any restrictions?

[Fossilcollector]

Hi everyone, I'm quoting this off of paleolist, apparently it seems to be about a anti-fossil collecting bill that may be passing soon. Does anyone have any more info? -YvW

"Hello XXXXX

At tonight's Northern Virginia Mineral meeting, Jan 26, Congressman

(and longtime Rockhound) John Culberson (Houston, Texas) stopped by at

the onset of our meeting to inform us that there was a ominous piece of

legislation, S 22, moving on a very fast track in Congress. It has

already passed the Senate and it is loaded with all sorts of goodies

for politicians and their constituents.

Lurking within this bill is a Paleontology section that would make it

illegal for anyone to pick up a fossil found on any Federal land!! The

penalties are onerous, 5 yrs and $10,000 fine. Only pre approved

professional paleontologists (universities and museum) would ever be

given permits.

According to Culberson, almost no one in Congress is aware of

this?fossil collecting restriction in this bill and they definitely do

not realize the ramifications.

Also, the bill states that if you owned private property on which

fossils were being found, these same approved paleontologists could

come on to your property and lay claim the fossils found on your

private land.

This portion of S 22 could single-handedly destroy the fossil

collecting hobby and harshly step on private property rights as well.?

It is also well known fact that most of the important fossil finds in

this country were made by amateur paleontologists.

Culberson stressed that this bill could be coming to a vote any day

now!? Perhaps within 48-72 hrs !!

The key is to urge Congressmen to request that the Paleontology section

be stripped out of S 22.

John Culberson strongly urged our membership to spread the word to

Mineral clubs around the country ASAP so as to generate protest emails

to Congessmen all over the country as well as urging us to contact our

own Congressman tomorrow if possible.

He stressed that contacting mineral clubs across the country was the

most important task and urging them to spread the word so that

Congessmen all across the country get emails and phone calls regarding

this and not just the handful of congressman in our area.

Thanks very much for any actions you take in this matter.

Sincerely, XXXX"

[Guest bmorefossil]

well that really does suck, but in most places it would be hard for them to tell if you were fossiling or not.

[Fossilcollector]

Here's the full bill if you're interested. What you want to look at is Title VI- Department of the Interior Authorizations, Subtitle D- Paleontological resource preservation, starting from sectoin 6301 if you want to scroll down to there.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...f:s22es.txt.pdf

Reading through it, it basically makes into law some BLM laws from various states, with strict penalties, among some of the important details:

- It does not affect casual collecting of common fossils such as inverts and plants, like on BLM lands.

- There are stiff penalties for selling/trading/etc fossils and Also for buying/trading/etc fossils found on federal lands if you know or suspect the fossils were found on federal lands. Basically if you think a fossil may have come from BLM land and you buy it, you're guilty and will be fined/jailed.

- You forfeit all vehicles and equiment used while fossil collecting illegally on federal lands.

- You might recieve a bounty if you turn in someone collecting on federal lands.

- Does not affect non-federal land. You can still collect, buy, sell, on private land material.

- Does not affect fossils you already own.

Anyone else want to read through the 6300 sections and see if they agreed with what I've pointed out?

-YvW

[Guest bmorefossil]

well ill be going to the doctors but after I get back ill be sure to look throught it and see what I can find

[Boesse]

From what I've heard is that this bill generally doesn't affect law abiding, regular ('joe plumber' if you wish) fossil collectors. It doesn't really make anything new illegal, it just better defines penalties for activities that are already illegal.

For example - its already illegal to collect fossils from federal land. I don't know how that necessarily changes anything.

This bill is meant to go after commercial collectors who collect fossils illegally - so all you east coasters are probably AOK. The bill will mainly affect commercial collectors in the rocky mountains and great plains who try (and often succeed) in stealing things like dinosaur skeletons from public, tribal, and federal lands. This is the consensus within the paleontological community, anyway. I know there are some paleontologists who give my field a bad name, but they (fortunately) aren't the writers of this bill; Pat Leiggi (a former preparator here at Museum of the Rockies) is a cowriter, and has explained this aspect of the bill.

I know some will remain fairly skeptical of this bill, but from what I've read and heard, it will generally not affect matters much for the sheer majority of people on this forum and the like.

Bobby

[mommabetts]

That really bites, maybe someone will stop it.

[Guest bmorefossil]

well not really because we have plenty of people who fossil illegally but its on private property like when people dig in the cliffs and such.

[Harry Pristis]

From what I've heard is that this bill generally doesn't affect law abiding, regular ('joe plumber' if you wish) fossil collectors. It doesn't really make anything new illegal, it just better defines penalties for activities that are already illegal.

For example - its already illegal to collect fossils from federal land. I don't know how that necessarily changes anything.

This bill is meant to go after commercial collectors who collect fossils illegally - so all you east coasters are probably AOK. The bill will mainly affect commercial collectors in the rocky mountains and great plains who try (and often succeed) in stealing things like dinosaur skeletons from public, tribal, and federal lands. This is the consensus within the paleontological community, anyway. I know there are some paleontologists who give my field a bad name, but they (fortunately) aren't the writers of this bill; Pat Leiggi (a former preparator here at Museum of the Rockies) is a cowriter, and has explained this aspect of the bill.

I know some will remain fairly skeptical of this bill, but from what I've read and heard, it will generally not affect matters much for the sheer majority of people on this forum and the like.

Bobby

I'm certain that Bobby is echoing the SVP line here. The SVP'ers have a vested interest in keeping all non-professional collectors away from their fossils. They seem to view collectors as evil, a part of an unpleasant reality. The SVP would have the government take control of fossils on private land . . . if they could find a way to overcome private property rights (another aspect of unpleasant reality for them).

Anyway, don't get me started on that topic.

Here's a post I picked off another forum. I don't think George would object.

AAPS has been fighting this and previous legislation for over a decade. I'm

going to outline our objections, but must say I'm not aware of any section

relating to private lands in either bill. If you can point me to that section,

I would appreciate it. Tracie Bennitt's letter is available in its entirety on

the AAPS web site for anyone to download and send to their representative.

http://www.aaps.net/message_from_the_president.html

The AAPS (Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences) board of directors

has reviewed House Bill HR 554, “Paleontological Resources Preservation Act” and

S.22 “Paleontological Resources Preservation.” There are many good things about

this bill in both forms, but also many issues that need to be addressed that

affect not only commercial collectors, like Triebold Paleontology, but many

academic and scientific institutions as well. We appreciate you taking the time

to review this information and how it will affect all of us in the paleontology

industry, commercial, academic and amateur.

The following points are reasons why AAPS cannot support this Bill (using

S.22 data) and urge you to vote NO on the upcoming Omnibus Public Land

Management Act of 2009 with Subtitle D included:

Sec. 6302 (a) states that “the Secretary shall manage and protect

Paleontological resources on Federal lands using scientific principles and

expertise.” This is exactly what many professional companies, like TPI, have to

offer. We applaud the Bill’s recognition that the Secretary of the Interior

has the responsibility to manage and protect paleontological resources on public

lands. After so many years of changing policy, this Bill would finally clarify

regulation of fossil collecting, and increase public awareness. We are in

complete support of the casual collecting exemption. Amateurs are the foot

soldiers of paleontology and their activities are to be encouraged. We applaud

the recognition that all qualified individuals will be eligible to obtain a

permit. In past bills, commercial and amateur collectors were not allowed to

obtain permits.

Sec. 6304 © 3 states that “specific locality data will not be released by the

permittee or repository without the written permission of the Secretary.” It is

against scientific principles to keep scientific data secret. This should be

available to all scientists and the general public who own public lands. Except

in only the most special circumstance locality data should not be withheld.

Science and the public want to know this information.

Sec. 6306 ( states that “a person may not make or submit any false record,

account, or label for, or any false identification of, any paleontological

resource excavated or removed from Federal land.” Ironically, Paleontology is a

field that is not set in stone. What you find and label in the field may not be

what you find as preparation is undertaken in the lab. Penalties for

misidentification of fossils will place every museum in jeopardy. There is not

one museum that is free from labeling errors on specimens on exhibit or in

collections.

Sec 6303 © states that penalties “such person shall be fined in accordance

with title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both”

is quite extreme punishment for mislabeling a fossil. We could find a large

number of our scientists and museum curators behind bars if this was actually

enforced. And heavens! With (d) if you mislabel more than two times, your

penalty could be doubled! I guess this would be one way for starving scientists

to get a free meal…

Sec. 6307 (a) 2 (A) states “the scientific or fair market value, whichever is

greater, of Paleontological resource involved.” There is no logical scientific

or empirical way to assign a dollar amount to scientific value. Only the term

fair market value should be used. The market adequately determines the value of

a Paleontological specimen.

Sec. 6308 ( states that “all vehicles and equipment of any person that were

used in connection with the violation, shall be subject to civil forfeiture, or

upon conviction, to criminal forfeiture.” Imprisonment and vehicle forfeiture

should be reserved for only the most heinous violations. Our government does

not need to put scientists in jail and confiscate University vans. We can

visualize now a group of students unknowingly crossing over an invisible line

and ending up handcuffed and prosecuted. An honest mistake is just that and

should be treated accordingly.

There are no provisions for the sale of fossils from commercial quarries or

surface collecting. These are an important and integral part of the world of

paleontology, and a mechanism to provide for the sale of fossils from public

lands, like other resources, should have been devised as part of this Bill.

There are also no provisions for commercial exploration, collecting, processing

and sale of fossils on public lands. Wouldn’t this be a better alternative than

fossils disappearing from the world forever? All other natural resources are

allowed this application. Why have vertebrate fossils been excluded? Gravel

companies can grind up fossils for fill, but collectors are not allowed to

collect and sell these same fossils. Something just doesn’t seem right about

this.

AAPS members have volunteered numerous times to assist with the wording of

this Bill and to date have been largely ignored. As the only organization of

professional fossil collectors in the US, we find it disturbing that the issues

we might have helped deal with in the creation of this legislation, and those

which unfortunately require that we withhold our support, could have been

successfully addressed had we been consulted. We invite you to visit our

facility here in Woodland Park to see firsthand how a commercial Paleontological

company does business and pays its own way. Please extend this invitation to

other members of the committee. I feel that they probably don’t really know

what we do, how we do it, and the responsibility we have to science and our

field of choice, paleontology.

Professional collectors, intimately familiar with the latest techniques for

safe retrieval and documentation can and should be a vital ally in the fight to

preserve our fossil resources. Myriad opportunities exist for contract and

collaborative exploration, excavation, preparation, molding, casting, mounting

and conservation. Due to the expense involved with fossil collecting, many

specimens have been lost to science due to the fact that the museums and

universities collecting on public land do not have the time, money or staff to

collect everything they see. These specimens end up as dust as they erode away.

Representatives from different museums and organizations have told us of this

exact thing happening to them, as year after year they return to a collecting

area and watch fossils erode to nothing.

George Winters, Administrative Director

Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences