Fossil Hunters Damage Rare Sites.

[Guest Nicholas]

Canadian laws are going to be ruined over these incidents...

"One of the world’s top insect fossil beds, which has suffered extensive damage as a result of commercial fossil hunting, will be somewhat better protected due to recent efforts by the Province of British Columbia."

Find the article HERE!

EDIT, 04/27/2011: A principal in the above controversy has herein offered facts in rebuttal; please read this thread through before drawing any conclusions based on one-sided "news" articles.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Auspex

[mommabetts]

Thanks for posting. I smell a lot of new laws being passed, probably every where now. To bad everyone can't play by the rules.

[Auspex]

Darn shame when a good site becomes a victim of "extraction industry collection".

Anyone have a lead on info about the Avian biota from that site?

EDIT, 04/27/2011: I still believe that it is a "Darn shame when a good site becomes a victim of "extraction industry collection"", but in light of the recent rebuttal by a principal in the controversy, I do not believe that there has been any unethical collection committed at this site; quite the opposite!

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

Lets be real here. Look at the picture of the formation. Very thick me thinks. It has been "damaged" by commercial collectors. What the heck does that mean? I think this is just another manipulation of the facts to scare people into thinking that only Academic Paleontologists can collect at good sites. From the picture it does not look like much "damage" has been done to this site at all. Looks like normal, non-mechanical excavations to me. But alas, now that the people in charge have been scared by the "professionals", we will most likely see this site sit there for years with fossils weathering away into oblivion.

The preceding statement has been my opinion and I endorse it. Delos For President, 2012.

PS. Happy Halloween

[Auspex]

Delos For President, 2012.

"A Meg in every pot!"

[Guest solius symbiosus]

I couldn't get the page to load, but I found THIS, which I assume is the same article.

I don't know about this outcrop, but many exposures of rare fossils have an areally very limited extent, and are limited vertically by the type of deposition(flysh) that preserved the critters to a few centimeters. While there is no scale discernable in the photograph, it is apparent that, at least, a few meters of material has been removed... maybe much more

There is no way of knowing how many, if any, undescribed specie have been stolen from the people of British Columbia by some greedy types whose only interest is financial gain. Hopefully, they are caught and prosecuted.

[ebrocklds]

i agree that there is littel to no damage done. the only "damage" could be the flooding the commercial market with too many insects and driving the price down. it is like saying that the commercial collectors have damaged the green river formation in Kemmerer. from the looks of the photo in the article, there is many many years of intense commercial digging that could be carried out. that whole mountain is undoubtedly full of the same stuff.

Brock

ps

if you couldn't tell i lean towards the commercial collefcting side most of the time. this does not however mean that i am against science. i do my fair share of donating important discoveries.

[Guest solius symbiosus]

I found THIS regarding the site.

Background: McAbee is unusual as it the only fossil site in British Columbia to operate as a commercial venture. In the early 1990’s, Dave Langevin, a local fossil collector from Kamloops, secured the mineral rights and together with Robert Drachuk, they opened the site up to the public. Careful to have significant specimens find their way to science, the two have done a great job of blending commercial and scientific interests. In more recent years, John Leahy, former editor of the BCPA Newsletter, has joined them. John has undertaken the monumental task of documenting the specimens found at the site and generously sharing his work with the paleontological community.

[BonemanX3]

DARN, I hate it when a great fossil hunting place gets blown away by the government because of someone "supposedly" destroying it. Like they said earlier it looks like their exaggerating quite a bit and I'd hate the place to be banned with all the important fossils that have been found so far.

[jimmy1971]

what a shame!

[Phoenixflood]

Thanks for posting. I smell a lot of new laws being passed, probably every where now. To bad everyone can't play by the rules.

I've said this before on here but no one has really commented but I think if we establish an ethical code and can have members sign a agreement of terms and join, we could establish an organiztion. This would allow us, to petion for our rights to collect fossils to the government. Those who were members would have to follow a strict set of rules. I propose that we come up with some rules that we all can hunt by.

[THobern]

I've said this before on here but no one has really commented but I think if we establish an ethical code and can have members sign a agreement of terms and join, we could establish an organiztion. This would allow us, to petion for our rights to collect fossils to the government. Those who were members would have to follow a strict set of rules. I propose that we come up with some rules that we all can hunt by.

The people who would agree to this sort of thing aren't the problem. For the commercial collector, if immediate recovery of fossils is ultimately in their self-interest, the fossils will be collected. While it may be better for an amateur to be bound by a code that ensures that they will always have sites at which to collect, their is little point in trying to bind those with different goals. Either way, it seems disingenuous to regulate ourselves simply to avoid the passing of unjust laws.

[Auspex]

I've said this before on here but no one has really commented but I think if we establish an ethical code and can have members sign a agreement of terms and join, we could establish an organiztion. This would allow us, to petion for our rights to collect fossils to the government. Those who were members would have to follow a strict set of rules. I propose that we come up with some rules that we all can hunt by.

The AAPS has a member code of ethics; it's on page two of this link:

http://www.aaps.net/pdf/AAPS-membership-Code.pdf

[jbswake]

Seems I am a little late in joining this post and site. I collect at this site. I work as the guide at it. Our commercial operation consists of one of the claim owners and myself. It would seem that the posts on this topic have a negative view of what we are doing. We run a fossil tour where a customers have an educational introduction, are set up with some tools and a bag, and get to dig for a few hours and keep the common specimens they find. Every once in a while the claim owners will get a request from someone looking for a museum quality specimen. As long as it has already been published and is in the various collections, they do sell those specimens. The claim owners have handed in over 500 specimens to science. Both have a plant species named in their honour. I collect the insects in particular. Science has over 250 of my specimens including a new genus of flower, a new genus of crayfish, and one insect named in my honour. If a person finds something rare or new, we photograph the person with their find and collect it from them along with their contact information. We then donate the fossil to the local university on the finders behalf. If it gets studied, we contact the finder to let them know what is happening with their find. We have an agreement with the government that was negotiated with the scientific community including the Royal BC Museum. We do not wholesale large amounts of prisitine plates for sale on the open market. We turn people onto fossil digging in the hot sun. The normal size of our plates are 10cm by 10 cm because of all the tectonic action in the recent past that broke up the fossil; beds. We have 30metres of fossils and about 400 metres of outcrop. It is only one of 11 exposures of the same lakebed in the area. We host upwards of 20 school groups a year and many budding palentologists. The scientists who is making these claims of destruction wants the exposure for himself. He actually got his phd based on specimens he collected from the site and ones I donated. But we are this big company of two people who share their love with fossils with anybody who is interested and they get to keep a few. And we have millions. They are everywhere. The only reason there has been so much interest in it is because of all the donations we have made to science. And there is supposed to be a paper naming three new birds from our site soon. One is a new genus too. We sell tours and the occasional fossil. And each year we get closer to covering the costs of opening the site up to the public.

[Auspex]

Thank you for providing us with some balance to this issue!

Even prior to your weighing in, the more I read about it, the less I believed the somewhat histrionic claims of wanton site destruction.

Now, about those birds; when is the paper due?

[piranha]

Sounds to me like you fine folks are a tremendous asset to the entire paleo community at large. Keep up the great work and keep fighting the good fight. The naysayers only confirm this fact IMHO. We would love to see the magnificent fossil treasures that you have mentioned if you have a moment to post photos.

Thanks for joining TFF !!

[Roz]

Oh yes, please post pics

[jbswake]

Thanks. I have no idea when the paper on the birds will be due. Dr Gareth Dycke from Ireland examined them when he was here in 2007. He saw what I had at home and asked me to donate some to the local university because they were flight feathers. Nice guy. Had a couple of beers with him in my home while he looked at my finds. The bird evidence I found was two small bones and a hell of a lot of individual feathers. My good friend, Dave, the claim owner, found a whole wing and part of the body. That is the new genus one he told me. The other specimen is a complete small bird that was found in the 1970s. All specimens are at TRU here in Kamloops.

[jbswake]

The problem with most of my pictures, as I have catalogued and pictured my whole 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008 collection, are more than 2megs. I stopped photographing them and recording them for science when I was attacked by some paleontologists who wanted to smeer me. There is actually a book coming out soon that addresses how low some professional paleontologists will go in dealing with amateurs. I get part of a chapter.

[jbswake]

Here are 2 pics: a feather and a nice beetle. Enjoy.

[piranha]

Most would empathize with your plight. I certainly do. From what you describe here your efforts should be applauded rather than vilified. Another David and Goliath tale no less. If enough pressure can be brought to bear the institutional concerns will make your group disappear in short order. I personally would not sit back and allow others with an ax to grind silence the effort. The remedy should have an ample dose of poetic justice for good measure. Instead turn the tables and make them run for cover. Publish, publish and publish some more. If they were ever to succeed in your ouster what do you think they will do in your absence?

Just as I was finishing this comment ...

Beautiful beetle and feather Jbswake !!

[bear-dog]

I understand this is an old post ,but here is my 2 cents worth.Sounds like something ,I have seen before with a twist.

When Frank Garcia discovered Leisy Shell Pits treasures he worked a LONG time removing fossils proffessionally.He did everything short of sending limos to the University to get them involved.It was after all the over burden was removed and a truck load of fossils were removed that they took interest.

They took over the site,doing the same methods to remove and catalog the fossils as we did.The only way amateurs could go in was to have the pro's sit over us to teach us the same methods we were using,and would sit and [supervise]do nothing.We couldnt take any fossils home [common fossils].

They controlled the site until they were satisfied with their haul.Then we were allowed in for a few months before the site closed.To date Frank hasen't got all the props he deserved from them,nor has all the volunteers been recognized.The fossils are....?And arent visible to the public.The only good from this is working with Frank,and having important info.come to light. And yes I was one of those crawling out of the pit at the end of the day on weekends.

Edited April 10, 2011 by bear-dog

[thanatocoenosis]

I stopped photographing them and recording them for science when I was attacked by some paleontologists who wanted to smeer me. There is actually a book coming out soon that addresses how low some professional paleontologists will go in dealing with amateurs. I get part of a chapter.

[citation needed]

That is a very serious allegation that demands supporting documentation so that those without "dog in the fight" can objectively evaluate your claims.

[Shellseeker]

I believe that the real issue is one of scope. There may be commercial fossils operations that are completely above board and do everything possible to respect the fossil sites.

That will not stop instances of unscrupulous people from severely damaging fossil sites. We have example after example to cite. Similar to fishing or any other resource open to the public, there are commercial ventures, there are small business catering to the public, and there are individuals. I live in south Florida and whenever we get new restrictions, shorter fishing seasons, no fishing bans on Grouper stocks, I do not immediately think "Oh, it is the individual fisherman, catching what he can eat, causing the problem."

Governments are going to increase regulations on the over-utilization of any desired resource.

So, I believe we need different regulations for different problems and users. Florida regulates Stone Crab season by cutting off those who sell the tasty claws -- On May 15th, any restaurant or fish market that sells fresh claws is fined $10000 a day. You might not be amazed on how effective that is.

We need regulations matched to classes of users: commercial ventures, public charters, individuals.

For Individuals, set up a clear set of rules: no digging on private land, no digging in river banks, wet foot/dry foot , etc, Set up rewards for turning in violators, and prosecute as severely as possible.

I value the resource, which has been degraded even within allowed rules over the last 15-20 years. I would like to think that my grandchildren will continue to enjoy the fossil experience in 15-20 years.

[Paleoc]

Everyone is quick to blame the commercial collectors for their greed. Which in many cases holds true. However, there are many "professionals" who are just as greedy as any commercial collector. They just justify it in the name of "science".

Some years back the Society of Vertebrate Paleontologists (SVP) tried pass a law (Bakker bill) in Congress that would essentially ban all amateur and commercial collecting (except for allowing you collect a few common specimens of invertebrates which they don't care about). As part of the law anytime a construction site was working a potential site with fossils one of these self-important experts would be called in to survey the site (and be paid handsomely for it). They would not only get to keep the fossils in their private err institutional collection but they would get a big paycheck out of it as well.

Now would be the real outcome of this. Say, I've got a construction company and I'm building a road and each work day is costing me a couple of hundred thousand dollars a day to work. Now one day one of my workers finds a bunch of bones. Currently, I call the museum, they sent a few people out who dig up the bones and try to stay out my way and I get nice writeup in the newspaper which makes me feel good and is free advertisement. Under the law they tried to get passed, some arrogant degree'd snotnose shows up, tells me to stop digging for a week, while he carefully and slowly works the site with dental picks and toothbrushes. Each minute of course costing me money. And then at the end, he holds out his hand for a big paycheck. A win-win for him!

So what would really happen in that situation. One of my workers reports finding a bunch of bones. I tell him to get a bulldozer and push the bones into the biggest hole he can find and bury it forever. No one wins.

This law was so egregious and so selfish that the head of the Smithsonian paleontology department turned down the chair position and resigned from the SVP in protest. Note, about 90% of the Smithsonian collection was donated by amateurs.

I've met many commercial collectors, most are great people who make great friends but a few (not many), I would keep my hand on my wallet around them.

I've met many "professionals", most are great people who make great friends and but others are just total selfish and self important (insert descriptive vulgarity here).

Edited April 10, 2011 by Paleoc