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Fossil Mushrooms?


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#1 dariusjaz

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:44 PM

Hey all, I'm new to the forum and to fossil collecting in general, but I am hoping someone here can ID these specimens for me.

 

I acquired these at an estate sale, they were mixed in with a collection of mineral samples.  The owner has passed and the heirs had no information about these items.  They look like clamshell mushrooms to me, but any help is appreciated.mushroom1.JPG mushroom2.JPG mushroom3.JPG



#2 jpc

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:50 PM

Hi and wqelcome... They look like mosasaur teeth form Morocco.  Fossil mushrooms are actually extremely rare.  I think there exists one specimen and it is preserved in amber. 



#3 CalGregg

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:57 AM

Yep, they're definitely Mosasaur teeth! 



#4 AJ Plai

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:01 AM

They are from Mosasaur globiden - a marine reptile like one in this pic:

Mosasaur Globiden 01.jpg

The teeth evolved especially for crushing hard-shelled creatures like turtles or ammonites, so they look weirder than normal Mosasaur teeth that are curved and pointy which many collectors (at least from where I live anyway) seem to prefer, I don't know what other people think, but I think they look so abnormal from normal mosasaurs they are beautiful...

Pretty good find, I would love to have a globiden tooth like one of those in my teeth collection :)

Edited by AJ Plai, 18 March 2013 - 04:02 AM.


#5 Ash

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:02 AM

I can certainly see how they might be thought of as mushrooms though, uncanny resemblence.



#6 Carl

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:58 AM

And beware: many of the "complete" Moroccan Globidens teeth (i.e., with roots) I've seen are real Globidens crowns adhered to carved chunks of fossil bone (often mosasaur vertebrae). The white ring around the break on the one whose crown has come off certainly looks like putty of some kind and convinces me it's this kind of fake. The center one looks suspect, too. It's probably all real fossil material, and likely all the same age Moroccan stuff, but very likely to be augmented.

#7 jpc

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:08 AM

I think all three seem to have this sort of "augmentation"  Still, can't complain if you found them in an estate sale lot.  Good educational stuff either way.


Edited by jpc, 18 March 2013 - 09:08 AM.


#8 Indy

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:09 AM

For comparison

 

1Thumb.JPG

2Thumb.JPG
Pictures taken at the MAPS Fossil Show (2009)

Web page with larger images ... Click Here

B)


Locality & Geology as well as Time Period is important Information

Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)


#9 Boneman007

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:38 AM

If the root of a mosasaur tooth does not have a "dent" in the side (the incoming tooth), it is fake.

 

Having seen over two dozen complete mosasaur skulls this weekend, I was amazed how the root is reabsorbed by the incoming tooth.  I wish I could post some of the pics I took this weekend.  I could show you what multiple REAL globidens teeth/jaws with real roots looks like.  (The pic on this thead is a real jaw - it is a transition from juvenile to adult)

 

I suspect that 99% of all rooted mosasaur teeth coming out of morrocco are fake.  I would avoid ALL of them.  Mosasaur teeth with roots are NOT shed teeth.  They only exist upon the death of a mosasaur. 

 

Statistically speaking, rooted teeth should be the rare exception, not the rule.  This should give you some idea of the percentage of fakes from morrocco.


Edited by Boneman007, 18 March 2013 - 10:46 AM.

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#10 AJ Plai

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:37 AM

If the root of a mosasaur tooth does not have a "dent" in the side (the incoming tooth), it is fake.
 
Having seen over two dozen complete mosasaur skulls this weekend, I was amazed how the root is reabsorbed by the incoming tooth.  I wish I could post some of the pics I took this weekend.  I could show you what multiple REAL globidens teeth/jaws with real roots looks like.  (The pic on this thead is a real jaw - it is a transition from juvenile to adult)
 
I suspect that 99% of all rooted mosasaur teeth coming out of morrocco are fake.  I would avoid ALL of them.  Mosasaur teeth with roots are NOT shed teeth.  They only exist upon the death of a mosasaur. 
 
Statistically speaking, rooted teeth should be the rare exception, not the rule.  This should give you some idea of the percentage of fakes from morrocco.

When u say "dent" in the side of the tooth do u mean like these ones?

Mosasaur Tooth A 01.jpg Mosasaur Tooth B 01.jpg Mosasaur Tooth C 01.jpg

Do these ones seem to be genuine by any chance?

#11 Boneman007

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:55 AM

Notice the missing area in the root, that would normally point to it being a real tooth/root.  However, I have to go back to the statistically reality that these roots are probably all fake.  There are a lot of mosasaur fossils that ARE due to death out there, but with the teeth, it would still be the exception, not the rule.



#12 AJ Plai

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:28 PM

Notice the missing area in the root, that would normally point to it being a real tooth/root.  However, I have to go back to the statistically reality that these roots are probably all fake.  There are a lot of mosasaur fossils that ARE due to death out there, but with the teeth, it would still be the exception, not the rule.

Sorry I got a little confused and am still a little puzzled... these teeth seem to show some kind of dent which I assume would be the feature that would authenticate a specimen as possibly to be real? Are these in the red circles the "dents" that you mentioned?

MosTooth A.png MosTooth B.png MosTooth C.png

but then u said about the "missing area in the root" - did you mean the same "dent" (i.e. the parts in red circles) that would authenticate the teeth as genuine?

So are these 3 particular teeth real or composites?

Thx for clarifying :)

Edited by AJ Plai, 18 March 2013 - 01:35 PM.


#13 Boneman007

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:36 PM

Sorry I got a little confused and am still a little puzzled... these teeth seem to show some kind of dent which I assume would be the feature that would authenticate a specimen as possibly to be real? Are these in the red circles the "dents" that you mentioned?

attachicon.gifMosTooth A.pngattachicon.gifMosTooth B.pngattachicon.gifMosTooth C.png

but then u said about the "missing area in the root" - did you mean the same "dent" (i.e. the parts in red circles) that would authenticate the teeth as genuine?

So are these 3 particular teeth real or composites?

Thx for clarifying :)

Looking at these, they appear to be correct. 

 

The "dent" is where the next tooth forms. After the enamel portion forms, it begins to reabsorb the root to start building the root of the new tooth.  This continues until the enamel porttion of the tooth simply falls off the all but absorbed root.

 

But, Statistically, ANY mosasaur tooth with a root is going to be much rarer than a tooth without a root.  Yet, when we look at Morroccan mosasaur teeth, almost all of them have roots.  This means that even in the teeth that "seem correct", the root is probably faked. 

 

To put it in perspective, the number of rooted mosasaur teeth versus non-rooted teeth found in the US is very small.  We find a lot of shed teeth  (Teeth without any root), however.   But, when we compare the number of rooted mosasaur teeth versus non-rooted teeth found outside the US, it is statistically almost opposite.  This shows that most non-US mosasaur teeth have had the root faked.

 

In life, the "dent" becomes very apparent as the new tooth matures, and in a given jaw, we should find many rooted teeth with dramatically reabosorbed, or partial roots.

 

Up until this weekend, I had no idea how the roots in mosasaur teeth worked.  It is pretty amazing once you see jaws with teeth in various stages of reabsorbtion.

 

(For those that didnt read my other post, I spent the weekend as SMU in the fossil archieves working with Ptychodus specimens, and while we were there, we got a very in-depth view of the fossil stores - Mind you, there was a little bit of "political correctness" in the way I was treated.  It seems that they appreciated the new pterosaur I donated a few weeks ago! :D  )


Edited by Boneman007, 18 March 2013 - 03:39 PM.

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#14 Carl

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:35 AM

I agree with Boneman007 but would take it even a bit further. There "shouldn't" be as many rooted teeth coming out of Morocco as there are, and the majority are fakes to be sure, but I strongly suspect that many real rooted teeth are also on the market because of their "ease of sale." Many commercial operations have "categories of perfection." A whole skull is great, but a partial skull may actually be more marketable as individual teeth. I suspect that many imperfect skulls and jaws are transformed into perfect individual teeth and sold that way. Mosasaurs are exceedingly common out there.

Edited by Carl, 19 March 2013 - 08:36 AM.


#15 donckey

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:13 PM

Boneman and Carl,

 

I agree with you that there are many Mosateeth from Morocco which are not orginal.

But saying that 99% is fake is grossly exaggerated. Many of the remains of Mosa from Morocco

are deformed by sedimental pressure and often in a bad shape and scattered because of other predators having a go at it after the mosa died.

Many times you find the big rooted teeth in between the scattered yaws. Most of the teeth Plai is showing are as good as they can be!

I myself have a few which I prepped open to see if they were messed with (of course species which had already a little damage :) ).

Mosa from the Netherlands and Belgium which you will hardly find for sale, also show teeth as plai is showing. And since they are not offered for sale there is no need for faking them.

 

Quote "To put it in perspective, the number of rooted mosasaur teeth versus non-rooted teeth found in the US is very small. We find a lot of shed teeth (Teeth without any root), however. But, when we compare the number of rooted mosasaur teeth versus non-rooted teeth found outside the US, it is statistically almost opposite. This shows that most non-US mosasaur teeth have had the root faked"

 

Again, there are many fakes from Morocco, but 99%???

Another thing is that the roots which are used to make a fake (I am talking about the ones with real roots in there composition) have to orginate from somewhere!

Since the Mosa did not loose his/her complete tooth (with roots and all) during livetime, as you stated yourselves, The roots must be coming from species after they died.

You can not have more teeth with roots attached as there are roots!

"To put it in perspective":  You do not know how many teeth without roots are found in Morocco. You also do not know how many of those teeth without roots are offered on the market. Apparently you do not know how many teeth without roots are found and offered on the market. I can assure you, that over here in Europe, you see more teeth without roots as with roots. 

So your conclusion that most (99%) are fake is very unscientific.

 

I do not mind you saying what your saying. Or warning people for the many falsefications and compositions from Morocco. But I do mind you telling Plai that his teeth with roots are most probably fake without having examined them more closely.

 

 

And Plai, you have got some nice species over there :)

 

Peter


Edited by donckey, 19 March 2013 - 01:19 PM.


#16 donckey

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:34 PM

Just to show some teeth loose in a jaw.

Notice the one with root+tooth, without a secundary tooth showing.

I prepped this one out of the orginal matrix so it can not be fake.

 

moso13 2.gif

moso13 3nieuw.jpg



#17 Boneman007

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:35 PM

Boneman and Carl,

 

I agree with you that there are many Mosateeth from Morocco which are not orginal.

But saying that 99% is fake is grossly exaggerated. Many of the remains of Mosa from Morocco

are deformed by sedimental pressure and often in a bad shape and scattered because of other predators having a go at it after the mosa died.

Many times you find the big rooted teeth in between the scattered yaws. Most of the teeth Plai is showing are as good as they can be!

I myself have a few which I prepped open to see if they were messed with (of course species which had already a little damage :) ).

Mosa from the Netherlands and Belgium which you will hardly find for sale, also show teeth as plai is showing. And since they are not offered for sale there is no need for faking them.

 

Quote "To put it in perspective, the number of rooted mosasaur teeth versus non-rooted teeth found in the US is very small. We find a lot of shed teeth (Teeth without any root), however. But, when we compare the number of rooted mosasaur teeth versus non-rooted teeth found outside the US, it is statistically almost opposite. This shows that most non-US mosasaur teeth have had the root faked"

 

Again, there are many fakes from Morocco, but 99%???

Another thing is that the roots which are used to make a fake (I am talking about the ones with real roots in there composition) have to orginate from somewhere!

Since the Mosa did not loose his/her complete tooth (with roots and all) during livetime, as you stated yourselves, The roots must be coming from species after they died.

You can not have more teeth with roots attached as there are roots!

"To put it in perspective":  You do not know how many teeth without roots are found in Morocco. You also do not know how many of those teeth without roots are offered on the market. Apparently you do not know how many teeth without roots are found and offered on the market. I can assure you, that over here in Europe, you see more teeth without roots as with roots. 

So your conclusion that most (99%) are fake is very unscientific.

 

I do not mind you saying what your saying. Or warning people for the many falsefications and compositions from Morocco. But I do mind you telling Plai that his teeth with roots are most probably fake without having examined them more closely.

 

 

And Plai, you have got some nice species over there :)

 

Peter

That's 99% of Mosasaur teeth with perfect roots are faked, either completely or partially.

 

Not all fossils from morrocco are faked.  There are as many reputible and disreputible people inside as well as outside of Morrocco.



#18 Boneman007

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:36 PM

Just to show some teeth loose in a jaw.

Notice the one with root+tooth, without a secundary tooth showing.

I prepped this one out of the orginal matrix so it can not be fake.

 

attachicon.gifmoso13 2.gif

attachicon.gifmoso13 3nieuw.jpg

Clearly this is a "death plate".  Exactly the circumstances that you WILL find rooted teeth.  But as I stated before, these teeth are the exception, not the rule.  The rule is that most mosasaur teeth are shed, and therefore will not have much, if any, root.

 

My statements only apply to isolated teeth.


Edited by Boneman007, 19 March 2013 - 01:37 PM.


#19 donckey

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:02 PM

I thought your statement was : 99% of al rooted teeth from morocco are false.

Again, I do agree many of them are fake but not 99%.

You also have to know that rooted teeth from "death plates" are extracted from the plates and sold seperatly because they get more money for it. 

That is why those teeth seem to be found isolated, but infact they were'nt.

We do not know if the teeth Plai shows (the first one has some restauration on the tooth itself, near the root), are isolated finds or are from death plates. 

For me I think atleast half of them are not fake. :)

 

Can you show some pictures of US loose mosa teeth with roots?

I like to see how they look like.

 

Peter



#20 dariusjaz

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:43 PM

Thank you all Very much for the ID and information.  I have shown the same photos to the Dean of Palenontology at a local college and he also ID as a mosasaur.  I will upload a couple of additional photos after I eat my dinner and yall can maybe decide if the "dents" in several specimens are "real" or faked.  I'm happy with them either way, but I would like to know so I don't mislabel them in my display.

 

Sorry, I did not want to sound like a dealer or something, I am building a shadowbox to display some of these teeth and a few other items I have.


Edited by dariusjaz, 19 March 2013 - 07:50 PM.




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