Would Like A Second Opinion On This Keichousaurus

[AJ Plai]

The specimen is about 9-10 inches long - is this about the largest you could get with this specie? How good is the prep job of this particular piece?

Also, I took a closer look at this specimen with a loupe and it seems to have a decent 3D texture, with no obvious ink work that I could detect, but I think it would be a good idea to upload the pics to let experienced fellow members here take a look at it and could give me a second opinion on this thing.

Thx for the help

[AJ Plai]

More pics of the specimen I couldn't upload in the first post:

[snolly50]

A nice dorsal presentation instead of the more common ventral. You have already performed the "up close" look that is recommended to spot paint, fill work and fabrication (looking for lack of fine detail and anomalies like bubbles). A couple of things that I see that add authenticity in my eyes are - the displaced digits of the left rear and the kink in the tail tip. A forger or fabricator would be clever indeed to include such features. I say enjoy this attractive piece, but let's see what others spot.

[vitellius]

A nice dorsal presentation instead of the more common ventral. You have already performed the "up close" look that is recommended to spot paint, fill work and fabrication (looking for lack of fine detail and anomalies like bubbles). A couple of things that I see that add authenticity in my eyes are - the displaced digits of the left rear and the kink in the tail tip. A forger or fabricator would be clever indeed to include such features. I say enjoy this attractive piece, but let's see what others spot.

Forgers *are* clever and they do fake disarticulated cervical vertebrae, skull and cervical vertebrae displacement over the thorax, kinked and disarticulated tail vertebrae, all to emulate the forces of nature which acted upon their bodies after death. The "rock carvers" in China are extremely capable at fooling people and their art and craft is officially condoned because it protects the treasures in China from depredation. Not to mention the death penalty which is imposed on those who are foolish enough to attempt to export fossils from China, particularly vertebrates.

I have attached a pic of "sea dragon carving" in process - it looks good and he is in the process of finalising it.

What you need to ascertain whether you have bone or in fact have rock, ink and/or crushed and glued fossilized skeletal matter is an arrow scribe. You take it and apply it to a small portion of your fossil and then you look under the microscope for cellular bone. If you can't find it, you have a fake.

You could also read this: http://srjphorton.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/how-to-tell-the-difference-from-real-articulated/

If I may ask, what was the provenance of this item? Did it originate from China (perhaps via HK)? IF so, it is almost certainly fake as that export has been for many years completely illegal and as I said, potentially punishable by the DP.

If it came from an old collection, then it may well be ok, but I would definitely test part of the structure as per the above link.

Of course, if you bought this keich on Ebay, you are probably a victim of fakery as are many others.

One last thing - I find a couple of UV torches to be indispensable (I buy mine from DealExtreme in HK). It will show resin, glues used to repair trilobites etc (although the really good preparators nowadays use crushed dolomite etc rather than organic resins for minor restorations and repairs - and most fossils are at least repaired). Shine a UV torch on this baby and see if anything looks suspicious.

regards

Steve

[snolly50]

thang, thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response. Indeed, if the piece were mine I would take a needle or pick to any suspicious area. However, in my response to the post I hesitated to suggest any destructive action. Your method obviously cuts to the heart of the matter and serves to decisively settle the question of fake/enhanced.

It is my understanding that Keichousaurus is very commonly represented in China's fossil deposits. I am unclear as to the extent of the government of China's ban on fossil export and would appreciate additional comments. Somehow I had gotten the impression that fossils of Chinese origin might still be secured via Hong Kong. Of course I can't recall how I got that notion and it doesn't make sense if there is a blanket ban. I guess my basic question is, if the ban is all inclusive, is it legal for anyone outside of China to possess a fossil of Chinese origin without documentation it was acquired prior to the ban?

I don't have a Keich in my collection, but have always had it on my mental acquisition checklist. Given the apparent chicanery surrounding these pieces, I would be very shy about purchasing one regardless of the source.

[steelhead9]

It's real, if a little crudely prepped. White quarts veins running through the specimen are usually a good sign.

[Auspex]

..White quarts veins running through the specimen are usually a good sign.

Which is now being faked!

This one looks pretty good by the photographs, but there is no substitute for a thorough in-hand examination.

Pictures on a computer screen CAN NOT be relied on to authenticate a specimen when good fakes abound.

[AJ Plai]

Forgers *are* clever and they do fake disarticulated cervical vertebrae, skull and cervical vertebrae displacement over the thorax, kinked and disarticulated tail vertebrae, all to emulate the forces of nature which acted upon their bodies after death. The "rock carvers" in China are extremely capable at fooling people and their art and craft is officially condoned because it protects the treasures in China from depredation. Not to mention the death penalty which is imposed on those who are foolish enough to attempt to export fossils from China, particularly vertebrates.

I have attached a pic of "sea dragon carving" in process - it looks good and he is in the process of finalising it.

What you need to ascertain whether you have bone or in fact have rock, ink and/or crushed and glued fossilized skeletal matter is an arrow scribe. You take it and apply it to a small portion of your fossil and then you look under the microscope for cellular bone. If you can't find it, you have a fake.

You could also read this: http://srjphorton.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/how-to-tell-the-difference-from-real-articulated/

If I may ask, what was the provenance of this item? Did it originate from China (perhaps via HK)? IF so, it is almost certainly fake as that export has been for many years completely illegal and as I said, potentially punishable by the DP.

If it came from an old collection, then it may well be ok, but I would definitely test part of the structure as per the above link.

Of course, if you bought this keich on Ebay, you are probably a victim of fakery as are many others.

One last thing - I find a couple of UV torches to be indispensable (I buy mine from DealExtreme in HK). It will show resin, glues used to repair trilobites etc (although the really good preparators nowadays use crushed dolomite etc rather than organic resins for minor restorations and repairs - and most fossils are at least repaired). Shine a UV torch on this baby and see if anything looks suspicious.

regards

Steve

This one previously belongs to a friend who got it from a fossil dealer in USA many years ago, but as to the provenance before that, well your guess is probably as good as mind.

Thx for a very informative post, I will see if I can get a hold of a UV light and test it out to see anything funny - I assume if the bones don't glow its supposedly fake right?

[cfin1974]

99 % on ebay are fakes they sell them cheap do research

[VisionXray23]

99 % on ebay are fakes they sell them cheap do research

I bought a kiechosaurus. After examining it under a microscope I

discovered that the fingers were painted on. They also paint the bones

to make them stand out more. Doesn't make them fake just enhanced. I

would rather get my hands on a 100% natural one though. I think it is

mostly real though, they just add missing parts. They are surprisingly

common.

[donckey]

I know somebody who offers (at a fossilfair in the Netherlands) a plate with two complete Keichousauri for over ten years now.

It looks beautiful. For a long time I am thinking of buying that plate. But not before I examine the fossils with a stereomicroscope.

Suppose they are authentic and not messed with to much., What would be a reasonable price for it? I am asking just for an estimate

Peter

[VisionXray23]

I know somebody who offers (at a fossilfair in the Netherlands) a plate with two complete Keichousauri for over ten years now.

It looks beautiful. For a long time I am thinking of buying that plate. But not before I examine the fossils with a stereomicroscope.

Suppose they are authentic and not messed with to much., What would be a reasonable price for it? I am asking just for an estimate

Peter

The best advice is to go find a what similar specimens have sold for on ebay. Go on ebay and search completed of keichousaurus double specimens. I've seen quite a few multi keichou for sale on ebay

[donckey]

VisionXray23,

Thanks for the information.

Learned that buying them on E-bay is a bad idea

And because so many fakes are offered it is difficult to get a good estimate about fair prices

Peter

[AJ Plai]

Peter

I am by no mean an expert in Keichousaurus, let alone in its valuation - so I am gonna attempt at taking a shot in the dark here: if mine can be used as anything to go by I got this 9-10 inches specimen for a little under $300 so I am guessing if there are two of them (of comparable size and quality) on the same matrix slab - that specimen perhaps shouldn't cost more than 700-900? (adding in a little extra $ for the rarity value of actually finding 2 of them on the same matrix).

I also have seen small ones about half the size of mine sold at Triassica (with all the extra freebies) around the range of $140-$160, so perhaps 2 of them should be in the around $400-$500? - using the same logic as above.

Then, again I have seen quite a few large ones with really good prep job on a well preserved specimen (a single K-saurus on a matrix) that has a price tag of more than $1,000.... (can they really get that expensive?!)

I would try to stay away from the cheap Chinese ones that I have seen are sold for under $100 - have seen some even as low as $40, but frankly they just seem fishy to me..

Anyway, take my opinion for what its worth and hope its useful.

Good luck in finding a nice twin Keichousauruses! If u do find a good one - plz do share since I would love to see it/them

Edited March 27, 2013 by AJ Plai

[Terry Dactyll]

Try viewing it under a UV light source....