JohnJ Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 They already have, HP Sauce Sorry, but that was priceless...I think I heard Mr. Harry laughing all the way in Texas. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Hi Harry, It is sold in Canada and the USA apparently. It is vinegary, spicy and fruity. I can take or leave it, it's quite runny, and to be honest, not much good for consolidating fossils either, contains vinegar. See some Q&A's here, starting with one from Florida. KOF, Bill. Welcome to the forum, all new members www.ukfossils check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Harry, PM me and it's yours - 3.5" - found in Texas....too funny. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Hi Harry,It is sold in Canada and the USA apparently. It is vinegary, spicy and fruity. I can take or leave it, it's quite runny, and to be honest, not much good for consolidating fossils either, contains vinegar. See some Q&A's here, starting with one from Florida. Nice link, 'Bill' . . . thanks! I shouldn't have looked before supper 'cause I am really hungry now! I'll look for HP Sauce in the "ethnic foods" section of my supermarket. I do like A1 Sauce which was one comparison on the site. Thanks for the offer, John! I just don't have any more room for another bottle. I have many very-collectible bottles just sitting around because I have no more space on my shelves! I am going to start selling some of them on eBay one of these days. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I thought of that post as a helpful hint, not a chastisement. Oh dear! Have I been too direct again!All of us, even the most knowledgeable and experienced like you, must stay alert to refinements in what we think we know. I am constantly making small corrections to my own certainties. Sometimes I stumble over something new and worthwhile; sometimes someone has to point the way to new understanding. I am sure that the need to contradict you here will be a rare phenomenon. I appreciate your deference to my expertise (which is too grand a word to describe my experience). But, please . . . "Mr. Pristis" was my father. Feel free to address me as "Mr. Harry." Or, as my closest friends address me . . . "Captain Consolidant." Harry, It's okay. I was unclear and incorrect and you were right to clarify and educate. Some people don't like being corrected, but hey, if I'm veering off the road, honk the horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Smilodon Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Back to consolidants, would you all suggest using the butvar/acetone mix to stabilize recent bone as well? Something else? I'm also interested in thoughts about Paleobond products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 that or vinac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 We bought 1 Kg of Butvar-76 for $24.00 plas shipping of course. I hated not having it when I needed as you know we can't just drive down to the corner store after it. It will not go to waste either. The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Hi Smilie, See my post Here and the link. PVA emulsions are recommended for wet bone, I imagine it would be ok for recent stuff. KOF, Bill. Welcome to the forum, all new members www.ukfossils check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Cool Bill I needed that info. to show a friend who likes to see things in print before he uses a product and this artical covers most of them. Thanks The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Hi Smilie,See my post Here and the link. PVA emulsions are recommended for wet bone, I imagine it would be ok for recent stuff. I don't want to niggle here, but your statement is incomplete. PVA emulsions may be recommended for wet bone that cannot be dried because it would crumble if dried. I've collected lots of wet bone and (almost) never had to consolidate it with a water-soluble emulsion. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 When I have used a Butvar-76/acetone solution on teeth it leaves a clouded coating that I do not like. I do use it on the root though and it works well. The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 article yet another article from a few years ago talking about various methods. as to the drying issue, although i favor a careful and controlled drying process to using pva emulsion, there are many things which will shrink and crack while drying, and it is therefore a rather high-stakes judgment call regarding how to proceed. if i feel the fossil is going to crack, i'll put pva emulsion on it without reservation, and maybe then even consider using more pva in acetone on it later after it's totally dry, if i think it didn't penetrate enough or something. but bear in mind that i've also been known to spray whipped cream and put a maraschino cherry on fossils, if they weren't tasty looking enough. i super glue those accessories on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 In 2002 I found a mammoth tusk and I had to keep it wrapped in wet paper towels b/ if it dried out it would have fallen apart. I ended up giving it away to a friend who was in the process of building a fossil museum in memory of his son. I would have loved to have known about PVA solutions that you mentioned back in 2002. Bummer The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 well, from reading different things, it's clear that a lot of material isn't mineralized sufficiently to withstand the dimensional changes drying causes without cracks, delaminations, or just crumbling. one other thing that i've used with teeth, and you might consider experimenting with, is going from them being wet to soaking them in increasing solutions of water mixed with ethanol until they're in pure ethanol and then from there they can be further dried in acetone, and then coated with the butvar, acetone mix. i would bet that if that were done, they wouldn't be "cloudy", in that i'm betting the cloudiness you've experienced is due to residual moisture, in that there's no reason that enamel itself would cause clouding of the drying butvar/acetone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 When I have used a Butvar-76/acetone solution on teeth it leaves a clouded coating that I do not like. I do use it on the root though and it works well. Is this the "clouded coating" to which you refer? ... "Many of the fossils that are discussed here on the forum have some residual moisture internally. Bones may trap moisture in their cancellous structure, though the surface may appear dry. I'm talking gross moisture as well as interstitial water. "A consolidant bath will bring the moisture to the surface of the bone (or tooth) where it appears as a white "blister." After the blister collapses, the white film remains on the surface of the bone. The white film is readily removed, but it is a pain if you're treating a number of fossils. It's just not good preparation. "Better to drive off all the moisture, get maximum penetration of the consolidant, and do it without going back to erase white marks." (from page 3 of this thread) http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I don't want to niggle here, but your statement is incomplete. PVA emulsions may be recommended for wet bone <u>that cannot be dried because it would crumble if dried</u>. I've collected lots of wet bone and (almost) never had to consolidate it with a water-soluble emulsion.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--> Hi Harry, Was any of the wet bone you collected, stuff that, 'couldn't be dried because it would crumble if dried'? If so, what did you treat that with? KOF, Bill. Welcome to the forum, all new members www.ukfossils check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Hi Harry, Was any of the wet bone you collected, stuff that, 'couldn't be dried because it would crumble if dried'? If so, what did you treat that with? I live and collect in an area of Florida where the ground-water is charged with silica. Bone preservation is rarely a problem. One such problem, though, is elephant ivory. Ivory swells when wet and shrinks when dried. It delaminates when it shrinks. I've experimented with PVA (white glue) to stabilized chunks of wet ivory with mixed results. The ivory consolidated with PVA typically had a semi-gloss hide on the surface. I did not find this satisfactory, and I dont think I have anything so-preserved in my collection. But, that's an esthetic, and PVA does consolidate crumbly bone. It's certainly better than a bunch of bone slivers. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traviscounty Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I live and collect in an area of Florida where the ground-water is charged with silica. Bone preservation is rarely a problem. One such problem, though, is elephant ivory. Ivory swells when wet and shrinks when dried. It delaminates when it shrinks. I've experimented with PVA (white glue) to stabilized chunks of wet ivory with mixed results. The ivory consolidated with PVA typically had a semi-gloss hide on the surface. I did not find this satisfactory, and I dont think I have anything so-preserved in my collection. But, that's an esthetic, and PVA does consolidate crumbly bone. It's certainly better than a bunch of bone slivers. Harry, I ordered some PVA beads to consolidate a piece of bone. It is crumbling as I clean it. I really want to stabilize this as I clean, but I am worried that this will adhere the matrix to the bone even more. This is tough matrix! Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Is this the "clouded coating" to which you refer? ... "Many of the fossils that are discussed here on the forum have some residual moisture internally. Bones may trap moisture in their cancellous structure, though the surface may appear dry. I'm talking gross moisture as well as interstitial water. "A consolidant bath will bring the moisture to the surface of the bone (or tooth) where it appears as a white "blister." After the blister collapses, the white film remains on the surface of the bone. The white film is readily removed, but it is a pain if you're treating a number of fossils. It's just not good preparation. "Better to drive off all the moisture, get maximum penetration of the consolidant, and do it without going back to erase white marks." (from page 3 of this thread) Harry The tooth I can assure you had no moisture on it when I prep it and I collected the tooth in an area with very dry conditions. It is the outside of the enamel that is problematic and the roots do very well. Could it be the mixture of the acetone and Butvar? Maybe much thinner then the instructions say. The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 the only things i can think of that would result in clouding on the enamel area would be perhaps ambient moisture in the air having more time to affect the butvar maybe? the enamel area is extremely dense and no consolidant will penetrate well there, so it sits on it while drying. perhaps one very thin coat from a new batch of mix on the enamel. but i would still make sure the tooth is dry. i've even soaked stuff in ethanol after the water to make sure it's dry before consolidant is applied. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Thanks Tracer I will try that. The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Harry The tooth I can assure you had no moisture on it when I prep it and I collected the tooth in an area with very dry conditions. It is the outside of the enamel that is problematic and the roots do very well. Could it be the mixture of the acetone and Butvar? Maybe much thinner then the instructions say. Without being there, it's hard to know exactly what your problem is, 'lawooten'. It's possible that the acetone or the Butvar-76 is contaminated. I can assure you that, unless you've taken pro-active steps to eliminate it, there is moisture in your fossils. Ordinarily, this is not a big problem. [from page 3 of this thread] "I usually heat specimens with an infra-red lamp to drive off moisture just before dipping the fossil. I do this with all sorts of fossils, and have never had one damaged by the heating. The untreated specimen is always at least as wet at the relative humidity of the air around it. (A microwave oven may be as effective, but I've only dried glass beads for my air-abrasive unit.) "Do NOT heat the acetone solution directly." If you're satisfied with the consolidant otherwise, just take a Dremel rotary wire brush to the enamel and remove the offending film from the surface of the tooth. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) Harry I will take my Dremel rotary wire brush to the enamel and remove it then try again by heating. LOL I would never heat acetone I used to be a guality inspector where acetone was used in the a great deal. Humidity in North Carolina? :lol: That could have been the factor the tooth I treated is a five and a half Meg I found years ago. We have collected many more but I have not treated them out od concern for how this one turned out. PS Thanks Harry Edited September 17, 2009 by lawooten The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 i'm not sure why you'd be wire brushing your teeth. the reason butvar is used is for reversability. just put it in acetone and wipe off the dissolved butvar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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