1) Horn Bone Cones Found In A New Zealand Cave In 1850

[michaelhere]

Hi

There were found by my grandfathers grandfather in 1850 in a cave in New Zealand - Any idea what dinosaur they are off? Be much appreciated for an ID and where i can sell them. these were left to me in an inheritance,they come with a lovely wooden display, 100% found in a cave in New Zealand in the year 1850, been in my family ever since they were found. Sorry but must upload 3 message as have different photos for help with ID

Many thanks

Michael

mm151065@gmail.com

[michaelhere]

2 more photos to help with ID

[michaelhere]

2 more photos to help with ID

[michaelhere]

Final photo

[Auspex]

They look like horn cores from cattle to me.

[michaelhere]

A guy in the US who runs a fossil business told me they are from a dino or ancient Bison.. He told me about this web site and said someone may know. They were buried deep in the cave, my family member was an archeologist

cheers

[michaelhere]

I can't see him taking cow horn cones all the way back from new Zealnad to London to hang on a mount

[Kosmoceras]

I do not think these are from a dinosaur but mammal is more likely.

[Auspex]

From a prehistoric standpoint, there were no mammals in New Zealand, so these would have to be post-European settlement.

[michaelhere]

ok great, which mammal,Bison?

[michaelhere]

Auspex please look at wikipedia, there were horned dinosaurs

[michaelhere]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaurs_of_New_Zealand

http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/845/new-zealand-dinosaurs

[michaelhere]

http://tvnz.co.nz/programme-sales/lost-dinosaurs-new-zealand-2202991

[Auspex]

Auspex please look at wikipedia, there were horned dinosaurs

True that, but these horn cores appear to me to be be mammalian, thus imported, thus Bos taurus.

[Kosmoceras]

Adding on to what Auspex has just said they don't look mineralised like you would expect on a fossil dinosaur bone.

[Gizmo]

http://www.google.com/search?q=new+Zealand+cattle+types&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=sAHOUbvMDIjl4AOCoIHgCw&ved=0CDwQsAQ&biw=1279&bih=686#facrc=_&imgdii=dZht2KHn5wNfpM%3A%3BwZGWIMCCI4u1uM%3BdZht2KHn5wNfpM%3A&imgrc=dZht2KHn5wNfpM%3A%3BovNoykHHlcwfMM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.highland-cattle-new-zealand.com%252Fimages%252Fhighc1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.highland-cattle-new-zealand.com%252FHighland_Cattle.htm%3B430%3B329

[painshill]

Yes, the only indigenous mammals New Zealand ever had were bats, cetaceans (whale, dolphin etc) and seals/sealions.

I believe the first cows arrived in 1814 and those were shorthorn breed. I would guess that - even in 1850 - cows were not a common sight. Bison are a very recent introduced species. They have never roamed wild in NZ and the breeding stock has been built up to a “captive” population of fewer than 100 animals.

Those have to be modern, I’m afraid. In fact, if you look closely at the end view provided by your third pic, you can clearly see that they have been cut from the skull with a metal saw.

Edited June 28, 2013 by painshill

[Scylla]

Remember, to us modern means less than 10,000 years old. The odds of an archeologist finding isolated dinosaur horns and cutting them flush to make a hat rack seem very slight. I would keep them as a family heirloom and connection to my family's past if I were you. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong here) that TFF frowns on giving appraisals. There are simple ways to tell if it is bone or stone though.

[painshill]

Remember, to us modern means less than 10,000 years old. The odds of an archeologist finding isolated dinosaur horns and cutting them flush to make a hat rack seem very slight. I would keep them as a family heirloom and connection to my family's past if I were you. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong here) that TFF frowns on giving appraisals. There are simple ways to tell if it is bone or stone though.

But none of the (rare) described dinosaur genera in New Zealand had horns like that and the undescribed genera are known only from fragmentary fossils. Such horns would in any case be truly fossilized and not readily cut with an ordinary saw to leave those saw-marks. There’s then a loooong gap before there were any (introduced) animals which had horns, such that they couldn’t be anything like 10,000 years old unless they were imported from elsewhere and traded to the natives at a much later date.

We don’t have to doubt that your grandfather found them in a cave in 1850… just that they couldn’t have been in that cave for more than about 35 years (unless traded to the Maori by whalers in the late 18^th Century).

[Boesse]

Sorry dude, the only animals in NZ large enough to have bones of that size in New Zealand long enough ago to even consider as fossils were Moa, and those definitely do not come from a bird. Humans were the first truly terrestrial mammal to make it to NZ approximately 500-600 years ago at the earliest, and cattle were brought along with Europeans even later. Those are definitely cattle horns, and they are less than 200 years old. Also, where is the rest of the skull? These horns are sawn off, which even further suggests that they are from a domesticated mammal which perished close to the time of being modified.

Otherwise, even if they did match the morphology of ceratopsians, do you really think a cave is going to be a stable environment for 65+ million years? Caves last for a thousands of years at the longest. The dinosaur record from NZ is incredibly scrappy, and mostly composed of tiny fragments of bone and isolated teeth from a couple of fossil localities. And furthermore, NZ is a Gondwanan landmass: ceratopsians never invaded the southern/Gondwanan landmasses (South America, Africa, India, Australia, Antarctica, NZ).

[michaelhere]

Now been informed these are from the neolithic period, an ID will given soon on what animal, yes there were indeed animals of that period in NZ which had horns

thanks for you help on my ID

[Doctor Mud]

Good luck with getting to the bottom of this mystery.

I understand and would probably think the same as to why he wouldn't bring cattle horns all the way back from New Zealand if he was a professional archaeologist.

Are you sure they come from New Zealand?

How do you know they are from the Neolithic? Usually this would involve radiocarbon dating or association with technology (e.g pottery shards) in New Zealand you would be looking at radiocarbon dating. Depending on what you call the Neolithic - usually the early to late Holocene (10,000 - 2000 BP ) you don't have any people in New Zealand.

I'd certainly be interested to hear what animal this came from if it was the Holocene in New Zealand since birds occupied all the niches usually occupied by mammals elsewhere. Moas were the big herbivores and giant eagles the apex predators.

These certainly look mammalian so no land based animal I've heard of.

[painshill]

It would be interesting to know who has "informed" you that those are Neolithic... and on what basis. If they were Neolithic (I sincerely doubt it) then they certainly didn't originate in New Zealand.

"Yes there were indeed animals of that period in NZ which had horns"?????? Where does that come from? Which animals?

[michaelhere]

Hi

The guy who told me is the following:

This is to acknowledge yours, which I will follow up in the next few days.

Yours sincerely
Ewan Fordyce

R. Ewan Fordyce

Professor, Department of Geology University of Otago, PO Box 56, Dunedin 9054, NZ

tel 3-479-7510, paleo lab 3-479-4575, cell 021-037-3964, fax 3-479-7527

web: http://www.otago.ac.nz/geology/people/fordyce/index.html

Research Associate, National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution; Fukui Prefectural Dinosaur Museum; Michigan State University Museum.

[Auspex]

Now been informed these are from the neolithic period, an ID will given soon on what animal, yes there were indeed animals of that period in NZ which had horns

thanks for you help on my ID

This is certainly news to me! I eagerly await more information.