Lori LuvsFossils Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Doctor Mud, your Weevil photo seems to be a perfect match! Considering the huge number of things it could have been, I'm completely amazed that it's been identified so quickly. If you didn't see the newer photos I uploaded to this thread, take a look. The 4th (final) photo matches yours very well. Just one thing I would like to add: The Peace River wasn't the collection site. A friend and I made a dash up the west side of the state collecting matrix to sort at a later date. I ended up with 2 buckets without location markers. I had to ask my friend to compare this matrix to his. It could only have come from either the Withlacoochee River or an area near the Crystal River. He felt it matched his Crystal river area material. Either way, both locations are slightly north of the Peace river. UGH, I've learned my lesson with marking my buckets! When I am land hunting, I find pieces that are stuck in the material they preserved in. In the river, not so much. The pieces usually just need to be cleaned of algae & sand, then they are good to go. I don't know how I'm supposed to date river/creek pieces. THANK YOU for all you (and everyone else) has done to ID this piece. You're my hero for the day. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori LuvsFossils Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Sorry, I missed your final question. YES, we consistently find Pleistocene mammal material in all 3 of the collection areas I mentioned. This bucket of material has a fair amount of Alligator, Rodent, Turtle & Snake. I've also found a smaller number of Raccoon & Opossum (teeth) and Bird (I think) bones. As would be expected, there are many pieces of various fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 It looks kind of recent, does it float? "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) Hi Lori, Nice find! You must really have good eyes to pull out small stuff like this. This is a neat thread too, I wish I wasn't on vacation when you first posted. Your specimen is from a beetle but it is not a prosternum. This is the mesosternum and metasternum complex of a Curculionidae. In beetles, the prosternum/pronotum is a tube like cuticular sclerite that is separate from the rest of the thorax. There is no flexible dividing suture between the prosternum (the ventral half) and the pronotum (the dorsal half), the two structures are fused together and will not separate even when the insect starts to decompose. In contrast, the mesosternum and metasternum are fused together, but not to the lateral or dorsal segments. Therefore the dividing suture is flexible and will separate in decomposition. This separated ventral sclerite is what you have found. I've highlighted the relative positions of the prosternum, mesosternum (which is often very small and reduced) and the metasternum in the image below. I've also compared your specimen to a generalized sketch of Curculionidae morphology (please forgive the blurry text) and the extant Florida species Hylobius pales, which has a very similar meso/metasternum. To be honest, and with all due respect to everyone posting, I'm not convinced that this is a fossil. The epicuticle in insects is a microscopically thin film, I do not believe that the images you have provided are sufficient to determine if the epicuticle is present or absent on this specimen. Furthermore, there are extant species of weevils that possess this same morphology living in Florida today. Regardless, it is very impressive that you pulled it out at all, I imagine most people would have just washed it away. Thanks for posting such a neat bit of bug and I hope this helps! Mavaldi, A. E., & Lanteri, A. A. (2005). Key to higher taxa of South American weevils based on adult characters. Revista Chilena de Historia Natural, 78, 65-87. Retrieved from http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=s0716-078x2005000100006&script=sci_arttext Schimming, L. (2005, March 5). Snout Beetle - Hylobius pales [Photograph]. Retrieved from http://bugguide.net/node/view/12293/bgimage Edited July 17, 2013 by AgrilusHunter 2 "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lil' reese Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I dont know/care what it is.... its CUTE <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitekmastr Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Terrific find - food for thought - the most intellectually delectable fossil we've seen recently - definitely a candidate for fossil of the month! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Terrific find - food for thought - the most intellectually delectable fossil we've seen recently - definitely a candidate for fossil of the month! The trick will be in establishing that it is indeed a fossil. I have my doubts... "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I think it's modern.. Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) Such is the problem with insect material that is eroding out of a relatively recent horizon. Many of the species found during the Pleistocene are very similar, if not exact, to species found today. Once an insect fossil is removed from a sealed stratigraphic setting it can be quite difficult to say it isn't modern. If the fossil is from a peat deposit, or other deposit that promotes extreme preservation, it can be even more difficult to separate from modern examples. For example, insect fossils have been found at Messel pit, and other localities, where the cuticular ultrastructure is intact, including the waxy epicuticle (Proc. R. Soc. B-2011-McNamara-rspb.2011.1677.pdf). This at least demonstrates that the epicuticle of insects is a highly resistant layer that may persist for many thousands, if not millions, of years. Lori's specimen could very well be a fossil but I think the proof to confirm it as such may be difficult to attain. Edited July 18, 2013 by AgrilusHunter 2 "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Again, does it float in water, if it does it's a recent insect part. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori LuvsFossils Posted July 18, 2013 Author Share Posted July 18, 2013 More really great information! Thanks AgrilusHunter!!!! I'm hugely impressed that such a small piece can be identified at all. So much thought has gone into this by so many great minds. Herb, while I'm in the field, I use a 1/2" screen & sift through water. Once it's back to the shop, I re-screen through water using a 1/4" screen. I also screen one more time through a window type screen to collect the very fine pieces. In the field, the bulk of the junk floats away, but it isn't 100%. In later screenings, the remaining floaters are tossed out. This piece sank through both screenings (it was too large to make it to the final phase). It's tougher than it might look....but even modern beetles are little tanks. lol I'm by no means qualified to date this or any other piece. I can just confirm it was dug up from a depth of at least 2' and comes from a hole rich with small fossils. I collect micro material from different locations around the state. Piece-per-piece this has been my highest producing micro fossil material. I understand, however, this doesn't exclude more modern pieces from tumbling in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Sounds like your methods would get rid of most recent pieces. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 (edited) Again, does it float in water, if it does it's a recent insect part. I don't think this would be a valid test for age concerning chitin. Chitin is not less dense than water. Small pieces only appear to float because they are too light to break the surface tension of the water, eventually though they will sink. Edited July 18, 2013 by AgrilusHunter "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori LuvsFossils Posted July 18, 2013 Author Share Posted July 18, 2013 Although it doesn't help the age debate, I thought I would throw in a pic of the matrix I've been sorting from this area. The pieces vary in color somewhat. The sheen is similar throughout. The quantity and quality of the mini/micro fossils found here is incredible. I'm looking forward to collecting in this area again. :-) Thanks to everyone who just plain likes the little stuff. I know it's not everyones thing. Have a great weekend all !!!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 The context in which it was found, barring cross-contamination, argues for its antiquity. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Although it doesn't help the age debate, I thought I would throw in a pic of the matrix I've been sorting from this area. The pieces vary in color somewhat. The sheen is similar throughout. The quantity and quality of the mini/micro fossils found here is incredible. I'm looking forward to collecting in this area again. :-) Thanks to everyone who just plain likes the little stuff. I know it's not everyones thing. Have a great weekend all !!!!!! KUDOS ... very impressive. I've spent more than my fair share of time in the micro-world. Thanks for sharing !! Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I don't think this would be a valid test for age concerning chitin. Chitin is not less dense than water. Small pieces only appear to float because they are too light to break the surface tension of the water, eventually though they will sink. I have had hundreds of recent insect pieces float out of sediment when being washed. If they are bobbing around on the surface, they are "floating" regardless of the physics and are probably recent. My take anyway. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 I have had hundreds of recent insect pieces float out of sediment when being washed. If they are bobbing around on the surface, they are "floating" regardless of the physics and are probably recent. My take anyway. Having hundreds wash away on the surface doesn't preclude many others sinking. My take is that a test for age based on whether or not an insect part floats would produce far too many false positives. "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 ...a test for age based on whether or not an insect part floats would produce far too many false positives. This should be notably true of Quaternary insect exo-parts from soft sediments, I would think: such might be largely unaltered. I can imagine ice age insects from a cave deposit that a good vet could recusitate. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 I guess we just have to agree to disagree "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Thanks AgrilusHunter, It looks exactly like the exant/living species. Like you say its exact age may remain a mystery since it is out of context - but certainly a testament to a keen eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori LuvsFossils Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 I have a few pieces I put aside awaiting a trip to the university. I have no plans to make a trip up there this year, but maybe, just maybe someone up there can help date this piece. I'll add it to the pieces I hope to discuss with them. :-) In the meantime, I think we can all agree my most recent find is not a fossil. YUMMMM. What a weekend !!! Hope you all had a great weekend doing whatever makes you happy !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Very, very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lissa318 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Agree! Very cool!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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