John K Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Hello all - it's been a while...my kids and I just got back from a quick trip to Montana to dig with an old friend of mine around Forsythe and Glendive. I mostly let my kids do the exploring and digging; I was there to haul water, tools and specimens, and keep them from getting lost out in the badlands! They had a ton of fun and found lots of nice stuff: ammonites, clams, oysters and such.We did some digging in the Bear Paw shhale south of Glendive, and one of the things I actually found was this little guy - I'm pretty positive that it's a brain cast: arbitrary "top" arbitrary "bottom" I shoved it in my pocket without really looking at it (I thought at first it might be two little nautaloids stuck togeather) and didn't really look at until I got home. What got my attention was the specimens symentry; it's a mirror of itself left and right. Looking through my modest selection of books, I'm guessing it's mammal, that got transported from the top of the bluff to the layer we were seaching for ammonites in. Any guesses on what it is beyond that? I've uploaded more photos to my gallery http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/gallery/album/1754-2013-montana/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Reminds me of a fossil Hyperostosic bone (Tilly bone) Link These are found most often in Florida but are known from around the world. Many bring "brain cast" to mind ... but they are a Hyperostosic bone (Tilly bone) Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Thanks Indy, that looks promising, but I'm not so sure. This is definetly a cast; the cast material looks to be a very fine grain sediment - the red bits in the crevices appear to be the only bone. But I had not thought of it being fish material - I'll look into that some more, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Given its size, I'm thinking that, if it is a brain endocast, it has to be a fish - way to small for any of the dinosaurs or other reptiles known from the Bearpaw. But the Bearpaw has a lot of fish, and, if I remember, lungfish especially. 1 The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Tilly bones have sent many a good fossil hunter into never-never land in an attempt to prove they've found a fossil brain cast. Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Yes, I should have said that I agree, it is most likely a Tilly bone - The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 A dissenting observation: There appears to be a thin layer of bone-like material adhering to a stony nucleus. If I am interpreting this correctly, then a cranium/endocast is a possibility, and a hyperostotic bone (soild by nature) is not. 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) Bone frequently is still attached to fossil Tilly bones. You can see bone in the example posted earlier ... Link By the way ... All the examples on the above website are true fossils ... None are modern Tilly bones. Edited July 31, 2013 by Indy Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Well, I don't want to beat a dead horse, or come off as a "human brain fossil" crack pot, but I did some (figurative) digging and found this: http://pterosaur-net.blogspot.com/2012_04_01_archive.html figures f, g and h very, very closly match the specimen I found; some would say exactly anhanguera santanae in this case, though I'm satisfied to go with just pterosaur 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Bone frequently is still attached to fossil Tilly bones.... My point is that Tilly bones are solid bone, maybe with small voids, but decidedly not hollow. This object's construction, at least by these pictures, bears a strong resemblance to the sediment-filled bird craniums in my collection. I do not propose that it is necessarily avian, but what appears to be an adherent layer of bone is very thin. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 It looks a bit infilled in places with mineral replacement to me. I vote natural head endocast.. What a beauty!! To what it belongs to have no idea.. I would not rule out fish at this point.. I didn't see a mention of what size the images are of a pterosaur headcase would be but I would think larger although I don't know.. How exciting! Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What age is this from? Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What age is this from? Late Campanian/Early Maastrichtian. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 3 Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Thanks, I have a clear idea of age now.. Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Here's what I'm on about: "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Here's what I'm on about: ~.JPG Yes, I see the area now you are talking about.. John, is there any way you could get a real closeup of the area? Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 Here's about the best close ups that I can get with my old Canon S2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Another possibility comes to mind, and might bear consideration: Could this be an ammonite section, and we are looking at the contours of a septum? "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I don't think it's ammonite. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is a headcase of something.. Just my thinking on this.. Thanks for the closeups, John.. Most of any bone would be inside if it fossilizes the same way of fish heads. Maybe it's time to send out some images to begin to rule things out.. I will PM you a contact and see if we can narrow this down.. Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Another possibility comes to mind, and might bear consideration: Could this be an ammonite section, and we are looking at the contours of a septum? ~~.JPG Makes sense to me !! On the other hand ... it could be an ammonite brain... Link Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I felt the same way Auspex did when I first saw it. I definitely get a bony-"shell"-plus-matrix-fill feel from this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I don't think it's ammonite. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is a headcase of something.. Just my thinking on this.. Thanks for the closeups, John.. Most of any bone would be inside if it fossilizes the same way of fish heads. Maybe it's time to send out some images to begin to rule things out as that would help rule things out.. I will PM you a contact and see if we can narrow this down.. I like to introduce "comparison/contrast" speculation to discussions where "great claims" are at stake. Being fairly familiar with in-filled bird crania, I risk that this ID is tenuous, having not explored other considerations. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 well, I've sent images to a couple different profesional contacts (thanks Roz), and I'll be showing the actual specimen to my friend and former teacher, paleontologist Dr. Mike Middleton (UW River Falls) when he gets back in 3 weeks. I'll report back when/what I find out more. This is very exciting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Exciting it is; meaty stuff! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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