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Did I Just Make A Huge Mistake Buying A Keichousaurus


SmallYeti

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Hi Everyone,

I'm guessing the answer to this would be yes so apologies for my naivety and thank you for your patience here.

My husband has always been into paelentology, loves his geology and fossils and he has a birthday coming up. I wanted to get him something really lovely because not only is he a lovely hubby on a daily basis but he's been especially so over the last few months, looking after my parents a lot when my Dad got seriously ill late last year.

I decided I wanted to get him a really lovely fossil plaque and so I went looking and found a Keichousaurus from a UK seller. Stupidly, having looked around a lot at internet fossil sites I still ended up on ebay because the sites either didn't have anything suitable or did have something amazing but that was out of my budget (which was reasonable at a few hundred but obviously not enough to get him something bigger).

The seller looks reputable enough. He has 100% positive feedback (but clearly doesn't really sell fossils - there were a couple of reviews from happy shoppers on there who had purchased a couple of fossils from him) answers all queries very promptly, has promised that should I be less than 100% happy with the fossil he will give me a full refund, states that he purchased this fossil from a reputable UK seller because he is aware of issues with Keichousaurus fossils, etc.

However, it wasn't until afterwards I decided to read up a little bit more about Keichousaurus' that I discovered about the issues exporting fossils from China and that in addition these are prime targets for fake fossils. Seriously, there is nothing that anyone can say at this point that is going to make me feel any more stupid than I already do and I've learnt a valuable lesson from it. The problem is that as this isn't something I've ever purchased before I genuinely didn't realise that people would or could make convincing fakes (although obviously I'm a bit better educated now)!

In terms of re-sale I'm sure my husband would never sell it but thats not the point - I wanted to give him something really special and unique to thank him for everything he does on a daily basis and I'd be heartbroken if it wasn't genuine. The fossil is getting shipped this week and like I said the seller does seem a genuinely nice guy, who has been with ebay for over a decade and I don't think he would deliberately attempt to fleece me. I do believe him when he says he would refund me if I wasn't happy so now I'm wondering if there is any way I can check the fossil is genuine when it arrives and could really do with some help.

I'm sorry to ask - I'm guessing I am far from alone in this topic but any help that could be offered would be very gratefully received.

I have a photo of the fossil below if this helps and have more if needed:

Many thanks for any help you can give!

post-12825-0-98477200-1376315028_thumb.jpg

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SmallYeti,

Please don't feel bad - you did a wonderful thing for someone special. :) He'll appreciate it, whether it's real or not. The thought behind it is what counts. Most people don't realize that fossils can be faked.

You can look at the fossil when it arrives with a jewler's loupe, and see if there is anything that looks obviously painted on. That is the most frequent issue with these - painted on bones to replace missing ones, or paint over the entire thing to make it look better - more contrast to the matrix. It's too difficult to tell anything from the picture provided.

Sometimes a UV light (blacklight) will show an obvious difference between bone and paint. See this thread : LINK

Failing that, an ex-ray of the fossil will show what is real and what is not. Know anyone in the medical field? :D

Cheer up, and if worse comes to worse - you can always return it to the seller.

I think your husband will like it, though.

Regards,

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    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

__________________________________________________
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."

John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~   ><))))( *>  About Me      

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For more than 20 years, Keichousaur fossils have been faked. Many of them are being sold on ebay for a couple of hundred pounds but to be honest, a creature like this would not be sold for this price if it were genuine. Genuine ones fetch much higher prices on average but occasionally you can get a bargain.

When your specimen arrives look carefully at the bones; real bones will have lots of texture but faked ones will normally be smooth. Fake bones will also have a hand painted look which they should not have. The carved vertebra will not look like vertebra, but will look like a lump with some straightforward ridges in it if fake. There will also be no even spaces in-between each vertebra like real spinal cords have. If the specimen has any of the things just mentioned, it is definitely a fake.

I have paid a visit to ebay and found some the specimen you bought adding the additional images to the discussion.

post-4683-0-50397500-1376317606_thumb.jpg post-4683-0-37636200-1376317608_thumb.jpg post-4683-0-79574200-1376317609_thumb.jpg

From what I have seen I can't say it looks too promising but this is not my area of expertise. Best of luck!

Regards,

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Just on the basis of the photograph, I see nothing egregiously bogus; the proportions are correct, and the layered 'halo' of matrix layers is neither easily nor often faked. Please understand that a much brighter, sharper series of images would be needed to truly parse it out, but the overview is reassuring. It is pretty typical of these Keichousaurs that the preparation might have been hasty (at the expense of removing a lot of detail), and that there may be some paint 'touch up' to restore missing bones.

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"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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You have a fake. No need to examine it. It is a fake. You were lied to my a dishonest seller. ALL OF THESE ARE FAKES. What's happened is people think there are real ones available so 'maybe' mine is real....or it's part real, etc. They convince themselves it might be legit.

I collect two things....fossils and guitars. The Chinese churn out fake fossils and fake guitars.

The Chinese are not stupid...they make a fake look like a real fossil restored...or half a fossil with finished parts...or two put together to make one....this way someone thinks they started off with a real fossil. Then the folks start to question if a fossil is real or a fake when the reality is they are all fakes.

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I have one on my wall I bought at Dinosaur World in Kentucky. Knew it was a fake when I bought it but I liked it and I will never get a chance to visit China to collect fossils. If you like it and not bothered knowing it is not real then enjoy it. When I classified my collection I note all casts and replicas. If something happens to me then whom ever gets my collection will have a concise list of real and replica fossils.

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I have one on my wall I bought at Dinosaur World in Kentucky. Knew it was a fake when I bought it but I liked it and I will never get a chance to visit China to collect fossils. If you like it and not bothered knowing it is not real then enjoy it. When I classified my collection I note all casts and replicas. If something happens to me then whom ever gets my collection will have a concise list of real and replica fossils.

You are right, the majority of us will never get the chance to collect in china; you can get the death penalty for attempting to remove valuable fossils from the country - another reason as to why so many are faked! The Chinese find it easier to make them and export fakes without the risk as they are not fossils.

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Hi SmallYeti

I agree with Fossildude19. It is a beautiful thing you have done and if I were in your husband's place I would truly appreciate your gift whatever its status. But on the other hand, you do want to make sure that you are getting value for your money and not being ripped off.

I have an alternative suggestion that you might like to consider. You have the ability to return the item (or perhaps even cancel your order if it hasn't already been dispatched). Without commenting on authenticity or degree of enhancement/restoration, if the uncertainty about the item troubles you, why not choose something else? With that kind of budget there are plenty of alternative attractive and desirable fossils which you could purchase where this kind of controversy doesn't apply. Particularly if you avoid Chinese and Moroccan items. I know you have been trawling internet sites without seeing something that sparks your imagination but I'm sure that - if this interests you - the membership here could make some suggestions. That kind of budget would get you a really nice mammoth tooth, a spectacular large ammonite, a nice megadolon shark tooth, a decent-sized theropod dinosaur tooth or a detailed large fish for example. Lots of other possibilities too.

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Roger

I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling]

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Hi SmallYeti

I agree with Fossildude19. It is a beautiful thing you have done and if I were in your husband's place I would truly appreciate your gift whatever its status. But on the other hand, you do want to make sure that you are getting value for your money and not being ripped off.

I have an alternative suggestion that you might like to consider. You have the ability to return the item (or perhaps even cancel your order if it hasn't already been dispatched). Without commenting on authenticity or degree of enhancement/restoration, if the uncertainty about the item troubles you, why not choose something else? With that kind of budget there are plenty of alternative attractive and desirable fossils which you could purchase where this kind of controversy doesn't apply. Particularly if you avoid Chinese and Moroccan items. I know you have been trawling internet sites without seeing something that sparks your imagination but I'm sure that - if this interests you - the membership here could make some suggestions. That kind of budget would get you a really nice mammoth tooth, a spectacular large ammonite, a nice megadolon shark tooth, a decent-sized theropod dinosaur tooth or a detailed large fish for example. Lots of other possibilities too.

This is an excellent suggestion, as well. :)

Regards,

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

__________________________________________________
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."

John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~   ><))))( *>  About Me      

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It looks like an absolutely authentic Keichousaurus. The photo of the skull actually shows a few remnants of the tiny teeth are preserved. These are found with the same frequency as Knightia fish form the Green River Fm. and shoddily prepped by a destructive wire wheel in order to bring them to market at a dizzying pace. The posted specimen falls right in line with wheel marks in evidence as a nice typical example for the price.

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image.png.a84de26dad44fb03836a743755df237c.png

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Thank you all so much for your kind and very helpful replies - I appreciate it so much.

I think that sadly there appears to be too much uncertainty about the item so I'll have to return it (I know he has already despatched it but it hasn't arrived yet). I feel really bad for the seller because I genuinely think he thinks it is real and I feel very bad about backing out of the sale. It isn't something I would normally do and I don't want to let him down or cost him any money.

If it is OK with everyone here I'll post some more images once it arrives just to see if it confirms all your theories and I'll try the blacklight and jeweller's loupe tips as well. I so want this to be real but I can't stop wondering how, if it is illegal to export fossils from China, this fossil happens to have ended up in the UK if it is genuine and, if it was, should I own it if it wasn't meant to leave the country in the first place!

The thing is that if I'd purchased it thinking it was a replica I really wouldn't mind but I brought it because I thought it was real and the whole idea behind it is to get something really special and very unique for my lovely hubby. He is genuinely so lovely that I don't think he'd mind if it was a replica either but seriously he deserves something wonderful for everything he has been doing and for generally being a really wonderful person and that's why I wanted a real fossil for him.

Also, thank you so much for the ideas for replacements - that is very much appreciated - I think I'll use this as an excuse to learn a bit more about these things!

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For the black light, a long tube light is better than a compact flrourescent or a bulb shaped black light. I just tested all three to find cat pee in my house and the long tube was much better.

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For the black light, a long tube light is better than a compact flrourescent or a bulb sgahaped black light. I just tested all three to find cat pee in my house and the long tube was much better.

Bad kitties! Bad!

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Your keichousaurus appears to be genuine. If you want assurance of this, take an exacto blade and scrape where the black bone meets the matrix (grey stone background). If you can scratch away the grey to reveal any more black bone beneath the surface of the matrix it most certainly is real.

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I have sold a lot of stuff on ebay, in my opinion, if you dont want it, ebay offers buyer protection on all items i believe. If you contact ebay and tell them that the fossil was described as real and the item did not meet the description, they should refund your money immediately. I once sold a book on ebay and the buyer claimed she recieved a different book. Without hearing my side of the story or making sure her claims were true, they refunded her the money out of my paypal account. Turns out she made a mistake and she did actually receive the right book, she let ebay know and they gave me the money back. Moral of the story: ebay should give you a refund with no questions asked.

*didnt see that you had already decided to return. The previous will work on items that don't accept returns though.

Edited by gwbh
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You have a fake. No need to examine it. It is a fake. You were lied to my a dishonest seller. ALL OF THESE ARE FAKES. What's happened is people think there are real ones available so 'maybe' mine is real....or it's part real, etc. They convince themselves it might be legit.

I collect two things....fossils and guitars. The Chinese churn out fake fossils and fake guitars.

The Chinese are not stupid...they make a fake look like a real fossil restored...or half a fossil with finished parts...or two put together to make one....this way someone thinks they started off with a real fossil. Then the folks start to question if a fossil is real or a fake when the reality is they are all fakes.

I'm curious how you know this fossil is fake without examining it. Also I worked for Eastman Guitars for several years and I can assure you they are not fakes by any means.
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Screenshot 2024-02-21 at 12.12.00 AM.png

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I'm curious how you know this fossil is fake without examining it. Also I worked for Eastman Guitars for several years and I can assure you they are not fakes by any means.

I agree. I believe Northstar's response was rather judgemental. I have seen fakes being sold on eBay, and also a few genuine ones in other places. In most fakes, the spine is just a carved line with vertebrae painted on it. The vertebrae on this specimen look good, and as Piranha said, I think I can see tiny teeth on it. And you didn't buy it from China either, which would have been a red flag.

I cannot say for certain though, it is not exactly my expertise. I would love a keichosaur myself, but I don't think I will ever have an authentic one.

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...Northstar's response was rather judgemental....

I just took it as a personal credo, that he personally will not buy Chinese fossils (nor Chinese guitars). :)

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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I wouldn't bet my life on it but easily 200Euro this Keichousaurus being a genuine one (ok, there will be some touch up, but more than 90% will be real). I would be very happy to get it as a gift.

Thomas

Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC).

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Even if it isn't real it is a nice piece. It looks pretty spot on though. I understand your concerns and especially with it being represented as real, but I think you will have a good piece. There is no way tot ell until you actually have it in hand though.

Your husband should be very excited to get that as a gift.

If you are dead-set on returning it, Painshill is right, there are PLENTY of other options out there that would make an equally nice gift for the amount spent.

Best of luck to you!

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1) Return that sucker, and don't feel bad, even pro paleontologists in big museums have been fooled for years by Chinese "handiwork".

2) Don't feel sorry for the seller. I assure you he knew EXACTLY what he was doing.

3) Buying gifts for maniacal collectors is not easy, the knowledge gap is too big, but your attempts will always be appreciated.

4) Best bet is to get in touch with one of his collecting buddies. Beg for help. Ask him to come along to a good dealer, and buy in person.

Ask him if hubby has been eyeballing anything in particular, or has a soft spot for critter x. If you're especially lucky you can find a local prepper and get something local and legit that hubby will really go nuts for, be it a 5" megalodon or a 1" pyritized trilobite from NY, or a rare fish from the Green River Formation.

Best of luck.

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I think too many people are assuming this is a complete fabrication without the results of some of the simple tests suggested above. Wait until the specimen arrives and you have it in hand to decide what you want to do with it. My guess is that your husband would be thrilled that you bought it for him, even if it were a work of art to hang on a wall rather than a fossil. Even as a replica or a "sculpture" it is quite impressive and a gift that many of us would be happy to own. If it turns out to be real that would be quite a bonus. I think you should wait to decide. Of course, I'm sure he would be equally impressed by some of the other suggestions too. Mostly, he'll be impressed at how much you care about him. I'll bet he already knows that.

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Start the day with a smile and get it over with.

 

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Oh no, so many of you are saying it could have been genuine and I've sent it back - I would be heartbroken if it was real because it looked so perfect and I think my hubby would have liked it. I had a look at it very close up under magnification and the bones seemed very smooth and not textured and to be honest a little painted on which was the real deciding factor for me.

To defend the seller, he refunded me really promptly, was really kind and understanding and I don't doubt him when he says he believes it is genuine. I think if I was buying it as a replica I'd have been so delighted with it but there is something so lovely and special about a genuine fossil and I want something really unique which only my husband will have so he knows it is special and just for him.

The problem is that now I know that fossils can and are faked I am genuinely worried that I don't know what I'm buying and that makes me nervous to actually get anything but I still think it is a good idea so I'm sticking with it. However, any suggestions of good ideas and reputable dealers would be really appreciated. Does anyone have any advice/thoughts on a sea scorpion as a gift instead?

Also to everyone saying such nice things about me getting a nice gift for my lovely hubby, thank you for being so kind but trust me he more than deserves it. I could spend hours talking about the hundreds of lovely things he's been doing this last year (and many years previously) and he never mentions them, never expects anything in return and is always lovely about helping people out. Really it is the least I can do to let him know he's appreciated (although I try to let him know anyway).

Thanks to everyone for their help so far!

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Hi SmallYeti

A Eurypterid would be a really nice thing to have. Those are not widely faked but there are a number of dealers offering high quality reproductions made out of resin (easy to spot in the flesh) and I have seen these passed off as genuine… although that was not the intent of the original maker. If buying on fleabay or other auction sites, watch out for “too good to be true” prices, read the descriptive wording carefully for any mention or suggestion of “replica” and check for return guarantees.

A nice specimen with its appendages from the famous location in Lanarkshire, Scotland might be difficult to find within your budget. There was a glut a few years ago of specimens originating from the Ukraine which I believe was the result of a new locality being discovered. There may still be some of those around. But your best bet in terms of getting the most for your money would be a New York specimen and that’s more likely to be from an American vendor. They generally also have better contrast between matrix colour and fossil colouration.

The start point for decent specimens from New York with at least some of the appendages preserved would be around $200, rising to around $400+ dollars for something really nice. Those are dealer prices but if you shop around on auction sites you might do rather better.

I have sent you some links by private mail for dealers that I would trust, including one specialist for NY Eurypterid fossils who always has spectacular specimens (at commensurate prices) but often has cheaper ones which are still well preserved. Those cheaper ones get snapped up really quickly so keep checking his site.

Edited by painshill

Roger

I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling]

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Bummer, although it sounds like you could still have a legitimate fossil. I would just give it to your husband as a gift at this point anyways. If nothing else it is symbolic for the work you put into finding a great gift.

Although I would just be open and honest with your husband and ask his opinion if he thinks it a fake. Let him know you did your best to try and find a real deal, but over the internet pictures and sellers can be deceptive, Im sure he understands that. Tell him if he does think its fake, you can return it and he can help you find a new one. But at least you have a thoughtful gift on the day. If you dont say anything to him though, he may accept the gift knowing its fake, but doesnt want to hurt your feelings by returning it. You started this project with good intentions, finish it that way and be honest and Im sure everything will be OK:)

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