A Few Fossils For Id

[SeaGee]

Hi, I have had these for a few years and have never been able to find out any info about them. The bottom three in the group picture (1) are the ones that have me stumped. These are all from Desoto county FL.

thanks for your help

SeaGee

[Auspex]

Could the long one be part of a huge stingray spine?

[SeaGee]

Could the long one be part of a huge stingray spine?

Hmmm...dont know, maybe, but I was also thinking possibly a sternum of some kind.

?.

[Guest bmorefossil]

well lucky for you bmore is here to help, the long fossil is a saw shark rostrum, the tooth seems to be from a whale, and when i get the picture to load ill get an id on the last one, could be from a vert or fish

[Guest bmorefossil]

i dont think its a sternum but for the last thing, it has signs of vert, and to me it looks like the back of a broken fish skull

[Guest bmorefossil]

Could the long one be part of a huge stingray spine?

is there a difference between a stingray spine and a stingray tail barb? if they are the same thing i dont thing thats what he found, i dont know the correct term for them but the tips that come off from the main body are to large.

[Auspex]

is there a difference between a stingray spine and a stingray tail barb? if they are the same thing i dont thing thats what he found, i dont know the correct term for them but the tips that come off from the main body are to large.

Right you are; I never thought about rostrum.

[makoken]

Hi, I have had these for a few years and have never been able to find out any info about them. The bottom three in the group picture (1) are the ones that have me stumped. These are all from Desoto county FL.

thanks for your help

SeaGee

I also think 3 4 6 seem to be a swoolen fish vert. The one in the second looks to be a worn jaw of some kind.

[Guest bmorefossil]

I also think 3 4 6 seem to be a swoolen fish vert. The one in the second looks to be a worn jaw of some kind.

the fish vert i could go with it being a swollen vert

i was going with that or broken fish skull

[Boesse]

I agree, it very much does look like a fish vert; looking closely, you can see the inverted cone of the centrum. I know at least that carangid fish often have all sorts of weird 'exostoses' or bony growths on their vertebral column.

As for the sawfish rostrum, I think bmorefossil is right on the mark.

The tooth is some kind of odontocete tooth, but its incomplete to tell past that.

Bobby

[Guest bmorefossil]

The tooth is some kind of odontocete tooth, but its incomplete to tell past that.

Bobby

is it just to worn to be able to id it?

[Harry Pristis]

Hi, I have had these for a few years and have never been able to find out any info about them. The bottom three in the group picture (1) are the ones that have me stumped. These are all from Desoto county FL.

thanks for your help

SeaGee

I think the "long thing" is a rostrum of a toothed whale. The notches we see are the sides of the tooth alveoli. If it were sawfish, the alveoli would not be evident in this image, but would be seen by SeaGee.

I agree with the fish bone hyperostosis ID.

[SeaGee]

thanks for the replies folks

[Pristiformes]

I think the "long thing" is a rostrum of a toothed whale. The notches we see are the sides of the tooth alveoli. If it were sawfish, the alveoli would not be evident in this image, but would be seen by SeaGee.

I agree with the fish bone hyperostosis ID.

I agree with Harry and others in that it appears to be a toothed whale rostral fragment. It is certainly not a sawfish rostral fragment since it the alveoli on the specimen in question are on the dorsal or ventral side of the rostrum. Sawfish rostral teeth are positioned laterally along the sides of the rostrum, and contrary to what is often written, the teeth are not positioned exactly opposite one another. The alveoli would be slightly alternate along the lateral edges of the rostrum in sawfish, which I believe is for structural reasons. Also, I know that its not a sawfish rostral frag because my saliva is still contained within my mouth, and I have not PM'd SeaGee with a proposal to purchase the frag.

Saw shark rostral teeth occur both laterally and ventrally on the rostrum, but are not set into sockets (so no alveoli would be present).

I'm less certain of the swollen looking fossil, but for lack of any better idea I'd go with it being a swollen fish vert. Compare the specimen with the two images at the top of pg 16 of Kocis's Vertebrate Fossils: A neophyte's Guide.

Nice stuff.

[Boesse]

You guys have raised some valid points about it not being a sawfish rostrum, and I accept that.

However, I doubt that it belongs to an odontocete, for a couple reasons. It is damned tiny - we're talking about a rostrum that was at most an inch wide. Certainly, there are odontocetes with rostra this wide, but their teeth are far far smaller; such as the modern La Plata River dolphin. Look how large the alveoli are with respect to the width of the element; they would have been nearly 1/2 the width of the rostrum, and spaced rather oddly. There isn't a single fossil or modern odontocete with a rostrum and teeth of this sort.

Additionally, there should be at least three of four sutures present; the medial maxillary or premaxillary sutures, and the max/premax sutures; I'm afraid I don't see any, and it appears to be one element.

Maybe a photograph of the other side would help, as that would more clearly exhibit any cetacean affinities.

Bobby

[Harry Pristis]

You guys have raised some valid points about it not being a sawfish rostrum, and I accept that.

However, I doubt that it belongs to an odontocete, for a couple reasons. It is damned tiny - we're talking about a rostrum that was at most an inch wide. Certainly, there are odontocetes with rostra this wide, but their teeth are far far smaller; such as the modern La Plata River dolphin. Look how large the alveoli are with respect to the width of the element; they would have been nearly 1/2 the width of the rostrum, and spaced rather oddly. There isn't a single fossil or modern odontocete with a rostrum and teeth of this sort.

Additionally, there should be at least three of four sutures present; the medial maxillary or premaxillary sutures, and the max/premax sutures; I'm afraid I don't see any, and it appears to be one element.

Maybe a photograph of the other side would help, as that would more clearly exhibit any cetacean affinities.

Bobby

These bits of bone are fairly common finds in the Peace River. You are correct to mention the sutures 'cause it is along these, particularly the medial suture, that these usually separate. But, they all don't separate in the same way. Here are a couple examples -- the one labeled Pomatodelphis is from the Peace River.

If I had to put a name to the species in question, I would lean toward Goniodelphis hudsoni.

[Boesse]

Ya... I don't buy it. Those rostra you've figured are gigantic compared to the specimen in question, the alveoli are more appropriately sized for the width of the rostrum (i.e. they are small relative to the rostral width), and the rostra are far more heavily built.

Interestingly, Uhen et al. (2008) list Goniodelphis as an Iniid. I'll check out Allen (1941) at the library, and see what this dolphin looks like.

Bobby

[ebrocklds]

here is a moroccan onchopristus rostrum for comparison.

http://www.stonesbones.com/121508x.jpg

it is different for sure, but there are lots of different kinds of saw nosed sharks. interesting thread by the way.

Brock

[worthy 55]

I have seen those before . If you look at it with wear on each side that is what it would look like. Toothed whale rostrum.

[Guest bmorefossil]

after looking at the pictures again i can see now the slots for mammal teeth to fit.

[mommabetts]

Good fines!!!!!!!!

[Boesse]

I have seen those before . If you look at it with wear on each side that is what it would look like. Toothed whale rostrum.

For one, no cetacean has ridges like that on its palate. Cetacean palates are basically flat and smooth, or have a *slight* ventral keel to them. This thing has a weird ridge Cetacean rostra typically also do not fracture transversely (i.e. sideways, in a horizontal fashion). It doesn't have distinct maxillae and premaxillae, which it would if it were in fact an odontocete rostrum.

I'm still not convinced, not by a long shot. We need a photo of the other side to say anything more about possible cetacean affinities.

Bobby

[Guest bmorefossil]

For one, no cetacean has ridges like that on its palate. Cetacean palates are basically flat and smooth, or have a *slight* ventral keel to them. This thing has a weird ridge Cetacean rostra typically also do not fracture transversely (i.e. sideways, in a horizontal fashion). It doesn't have distinct maxillae and premaxillae, which it would if it were in fact an odontocete rostrum.

I'm still not convinced, not by a long shot. We need a photo of the other side to say anything more about possible cetacean affinities.

Bobby

could it be gator?

[tracer]

well, i know nothin' from nothin', but i was wondering, if the thing doesn't fit well in ya'll's copious knowledge of things with fins, could it perhaps be from something along the lines of a gavial?

[Boesse]

Thats certainly a possibility - good point, bmorefossil and tracer. Anyone on here know much on crocodilian rostra? I know that there is a small croc called Thecachampsa from the Chesapeake Group and Pungo River Limestone.

Bobby