Time To Drool!

[Shellseeker]

I went to the Peace River today. It is HIGH but doable if you are OK with taking risks. I did much as I expected. Found a few items, armadillo osteoderm, large puffer fish mouth plate, a medium Mako and some nice smaller Hemis. Good haul for early in the year.

However, a stroke of luck. A year back I made friends with someone who hunted the Peace in the 60s and 70s, and still had about 1/4 of her collection. Items like a complete Mammoth tusk, complete mammoth verts including two that were fused, complete baby Mammoth, Mastodon, and Gomph teeth.

Today was the day I was invited to view the collection and I feel blessed. How about tri-colored bone valley Megs: one was white roots with orange bourlette and blue blade.

I offered to help Identify 2 fossils just sitting in a tray with a hundred other really special fossils. So here they are: a tusk just over 5 inches and a carnassial at 2.125 inches measured parallel to the occusal surface.

Enjoy!!! I only wish I started hunting the Peace in the 60s. SS

[RichW9090]

Your measurement of 2.125 inches is accurate, that would be about 5.2 cm. That is larger than any known canid m1, much larger than Epicyon. The wear is also wierd. I don't have any comparitive material here, but it looks to me like a very large nimravid, maybe Barbourofelis. It certainly wouldn't be Blancan to RLB if that is the case. Is Miocene material known from the Peace River?

Edit: Apparently so, as it cuts through the Bone Valley sediments.

Edited October 10, 2013 by RichW9090

[RichW9090]

The tusk looks like rhino. Maybe some of our Florida mavens will recognize it - I don't get to play with thinos much.

[Shellseeker]

As always RIch you are insightful.

The Florida member of the sabercat family, Smilodon Gracilis has a carnassial with an average length of 1.5 inches. A possibility is panthera Atrox. WOW -- it would be interesting what Harry Pristis or PrehistoricFlorida think. That would be a really rare fossil.

EDIT --

See the photo at this link -- Upper left Carnassial?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panthera_Atrox.jpg

Miocene fossils are known at some sections of the Peace. I myself have found 3-toed horse teeth and multiple members of my fossil club have found Rhino teeth and tusks.

A good possibility is Teleoceras Proterum and a female whose tusk would be approximately this size both smaller and shaped differently from a male. Having said that I do not have a good photo to compare.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Shellseeker

[Hemi-God]

Oh man! SS, you always post the good stuff.

I suppose I'm just going to have to brave the water level and get my butt out to the river this weekend.

Just how strong is it running? Will I be able to get my big canoe to go upriver?

[RichW9090]

Shell, a sample of 10 P atrox upper carnassials from La Brea measured from 35mm to 45mm, so your fossil is significantly larger than that. Also, felid upper carnassials have a pronounced protocone, set off to the medial side of the tooth, often sitting directly over its own rootlet. I don't see that at all here.

Rich

[Shellseeker]

Thanks RIch, I guess I should stop guessing and wait for more experts. Just for my info -- Is this a P4 upper right?

Hemi-god, As always I am pushing to get back in. The water is full of silt and muddy and still pretty deep. I prospected a few locations with exposed gravel mounds back in the dry season. A month ago they were up to 6 feet under but now at spots the water comes up just over my knees. I did make the mistake of jumping into a location productive back in March and it was up to my chest. No chance there.

As you say the speed of the current is the problem. Paynes is running at 80 cubic feet per second which is controllable if you can dig in 3-4 feet of water. As indicated I did find a nice Armadillo & Mako, but pickings are slim because I am digging top layers.

Much of the rain has hit Zolfo and Arcadia, not Wauchula so conditions are better further upstream.

Good hunting and ... be careful out there.. SS

[RichW9090]

Shell, I'm not sure if it is an upper or a lower carnassial - P4 or m1. I've not handled Barbourofelis myself, so I'm a little unsure of the morphology.

Edited October 10, 2013 by RichW9090

[worthy 55]

Wow! very cool finds there!

[worthy 55]

I think Rich is right on the tusk being Rhino.

[worthy 55]

The tooth looks like a p4 maxilla from a Smilodon. WOW! The wear looks right also. Sweeeeeet!

Edited October 11, 2013 by worthy 55

[RichW9090]

Way too big for Smilodon. Twenty-two P4s from Ranch La Brea ranged from 33.4 to 46.0. This tooth is about 6 mm larger than the largest from RLB. And as I noted, it lacks the off-set protocone and separate root. And again, the wear pattern is not typical of Smilodon or P. atrox.

Rich

[Shellseeker]

Thanks Worthy,

I am just not sure, Agree it is a p4 Maxilla but Smilodon or Panthera Atrox (looks the same in this Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panthera_Atrox.jpg) or one of the 2 Barbourofelis -- morrisi or lovei.

ALL 3 species existed in Florida --- the length of the enamel is 2.125 inches. How do we differentiate between the three -- Rich is indicating this is not a feline carnassial.. a Mystery!!!

EDIT -- Should have added .. This is not my find/tooth. It was found in the Peace River in the 1970s and is part of a friend's collection as is the Rhino tusk!!!

Edited October 11, 2013 by Shellseeker

[worthy 55]

SS, Harry P should be able to help with this. He knows alot about fossils from FL.send him a PM. now?

[Plantguy]

SS, mighty spectacular material! Looking forward to hearing what they turn out to be.

Its been fairly dry for awhile, knock on wood! I am hoping as everyone is that the water goes down real soon!

Regards, Chris

[Shellseeker]

SS, Harry P should be able to help with this. He knows alot about fossils from FL.send him a PM. now?

I PMed Harry. I also saw Frank Garcia at National Fossil Day celebrations at Paynes Creek Park today. Frank said that he has held both (lovei and morrisi) Florida versions of Barbourofelis in his hands and neither had carnassials nearly as big as this tooth. It seems that by process of elimination, it must be panthera Atrox. It is the only Florida species that has a carnassial large enough,

Rich, I was unable to debate from memory the basis of your concerns on this tooth, so I am still waiting for HarryP or PreHistoric Florida to evaluate.

[RichW9090]

This tooth is not P. atrox. As I showed before it is too big (P. atrox sample 35-45 mm) and lacks an internally located protocone and lacks a proto-radix.

Without actual measurements of Barbourofelis, Garcia's comments are at best a maybe, but certainly don't provide much in the way of real data.

[Shellseeker]

Rich,

Took the only path left -- sent a note to Richard Hulbert at UF vertebrate lab. I'll let you know.

[RichW9090]

I'll be interested to see what he says with the fossil in hand.

[catmaggie]

of course, we hope for the same Peaceful dreams....until 2mor.

[rylawz]

lets see the proboscidea material (primarily the teeth)l if you get a chance to snap some pictures of them.

[worthy 55]

Any word on the ID yet?

[steelhead9]

Any chance this could be from the very rare large amphycions found in Florida?

[Shellseeker]

Not much on updates:

I did not take photos of gomph, mammoth, mastodon teeth because in this collection they were not rare. I have included a photo of the one juvenile mammoth tooth photo below.

I contacted Richard Hulbert. He believes the "tusk" may be a Harlan's caniniform upper tooth but defers judgement on either tooth until he can get them in hand.

Other commitments by both the owner and Richard are delaying the connection. I believe that it will take until mid-November to get a more definitive answer.

I know it is not very satisfying -- just a wait and see at this point.

[rylawz]

Nice Colombian mammoth baby tooth but Proboscidea teeth of any kind are very rare. Not like shark teeth where billions exist.