Hell Creek Dinosaur Claw - Dromaeosaur Or Chirostenotes Or Something Else Altogether?

[AJ Plai]

This is a claw found in Hell Creek so I assumed it's a Dromaeosaur but upon searching for pics online it seems that a Dromaeosaur seem to have a smaller digit bone that connects with the claw so my guess is it could be a claw from Chirostenotes but can't be sure.

This is the specimen:

Just the claw:

And this is the digit bone:

What do you guys think it could be?

Thx for the help

[JackSnakes]

Could it be upper arm? The bone behind the claw on the upper limbs is about that size...

[Auspex]

I do not think that the claw and the other bone belong together.

[AJ Plai]

It's not from the same animal I am pretty sure, but it looks to be from the same specie, since it seems to fit quite nicely but that's just my guess.

[jualhadun87]

Theropod of some sort, looks like forearm claw, the long bone could be correct, looks like metacarpals or manual plalanges. How were they associated? Found right next to each other? Relative proximity? Articulated? (which I know is uncommon in Hell Creek material). Couple pictures of similar looking bone structures:

[jualhadun87]

PS, REALLY nice find!

[Troodon]

I do not believe that the claw/digit comes from the Hell Creek. The color and texture are also completely wrong for the HC. Its definitely not Chiro or Dromie and it gives me the appearance of being older in age, possibly early Cretaceous or Jurassic. Does the seller have any additional information? The digit is definitely a carpal.

[jpc]

I agree with troodon, that the preservation doesn't look like Hell Creek at all. That's as far as I can say.

[Ridgehiker]

It's not western N. America and the claw is fake.

Good grief...why do people keep circulating this stuff. Replicas are fine as long as they are labeled as such.

But, but, but.....he said blah, blah,...

I think I'll take some chunks of Dino bone out to the workshop, stick them on the lathe and make a few dozen 'claws'.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Ridgehiker

[Troodon]

Hi AJ

I believe what you have is an Allosaurus claw. See attached two images. Your specimen appears to have a good portion of the tip restored which change the look of the business end of the claw.

[Auspex]

It's not western N. America and the claw is fake.

Good grief...why do people keep circulating this stuff. Replicas are fine as long as they are labeled as such.

But, but, but.....he said blah, blah,...

I think I'll take some chunks of Dino bone out to the workshop, stick them on the lathe and make a few dozen 'claws'.

Your feelings on such are well known, but how can you pull that fake/replica trigger so quickly, based on a couple small images? I know you have a great deal of experience, and I'd like to learn what you see here that throws that switch for you.

[Ridgehiker]

Your feelings on such are well known, but how can you pull that fake/replica trigger so quickly, based on a couple small images? I know you have a great deal of experience, and I'd like to learn what you see here that throws that switch for you.

Hmm. Last comment I make on this forum about Cretaceous Dinos. I'll leave commentary to the magically informed who live thousands of km away.

Comments now reserved to brachs, ammonites, etc.

[Auspex]

Hmm. Last comment I make on this forum about Cretaceous Dinos. I'll leave commentary to the magically informed who live thousands of km away.

Comments now reserved to brachs, ammonites, etc.

I seriously would like to know what to look for; there is no offense intended at all.

[PFOOLEY]

Hmm. Last comment I make on this forum about Cretaceous Dinos. I'll leave commentary to the magically informed who live thousands of km away.

Comments now reserved to brachs, ammonites, etc.

I really hope this is not the case. Regardless if I comment on your finds, I use your experience as a reference in my adventures.

[donckey]

Hmm. Last comment I make on this forum about Cretaceous Dinos. I'll leave commentary to the magically informed who live thousands of km away.

Comments now reserved to brachs, ammonites, etc.

Northstar,

Instead of feeling insulted, why not explain your opinion about the claw being fake, like Auspex suggests?

And don't you think that your first comment is not very friendly towards our respected forum member AJPlai?

Peter

[jpc]

I agree, northstar. I am curious as to your judgement of fakitude.

[Carcharodontosaurus]

I agree, northstar. I am curious as to your judgement of fakitude.

Fourthed. I find Northstar's quick judgement of any expensive and rare fossils bought on the fossil trade (dinosaur eggs, claws, keichousaurs, etc) as being fakes to be rather dubious, since he tends to say that such fossils are fakes without explaining why.

I do not wish to offend anybody, but I have a request for Northstar. I want him to use a lathe to carve a fake dinosaur claw out of a piece of dinosaur bone and compare it to a real claw, just to see how indistinguishable they really are.

However, I would be suspicious of this particular claw. Try using the hot needle test.

[AJ Plai]

Hey guys thx for the info

From what I gathered from the previous owner, the fossils (Claw and Digit) were found in the same locality (which he believed to be Hell Creek, but that seems to not be the case now) in near proximity to one another, but from the differing colors I suspected that they were not from the same creature, although the pieces seem to fit perfectly with one another so if they were not from the same dead dinosaur, I would guess they were from the same species of very similar size and growth stage - but that's just a guess from limited knowledge that I have.

The tip indeed has been restored, according to the previous owner, and he has had someone mentioned before that it could be an Allo tooth, but since he thought that its a HC found specimen so didn't think it could be, but if it turns out to be an Allo claw as Troodon believes, then that would be a great find indeed!

As for Northstar's opinions, rest assured I do not feel offended nor upset, even if it's a fake - it will still be a good learning lesson on my part, but if its not, it is quite a decent acquisition deal regardless. I have had much worse insults at my hobby or collection from some local people here who think I must be stupid to believe that real fossils can be acquired and that I spend money on old dead bones LOL. Funny thing is, a few of these people have no problem spending $1,000s - $10,000s of dollars acquiring trinkets or charms and amulets said to have been blessed by ancient monks or gurus with little to no way of proving provenance or authenticity of the claims and legends (how can you prove that it's been blessed by this particular monk or guru is beyond me, so go figure….) but that's just my ramblings and beside the point.

I think the beauty of a community like this is we have people of various backgrounds, opinions and views - both extreme and moderate and I believe that's a great environment to get knowledge-sharing and discussion going. I for one would be very curious to know about the techniques and expertise in spotting fake specimens and Northstar's insights and opinions will be valuable and appreciated by fellow members here, I am sure.

[donckey]

AJ

You are a real gentleman

I too hope that you, Northstar will give us some insights in spotting fakes which are difficult to recognize by the most of us (well speeking for myself )

And hope you will keep on giving constructive reactions on (Dino)saurier material

Peter

[jpc]

AJ.. nice post... one thing, though... I have seen bones of an individual animal collected bu myself right next to each other that are different colors. I have seen teeth in a jaw that are different colors. So the different colors should not be used to say they are from different animals.

[PFOOLEY]

AJ.. nice post... one thing, though... I have seen bones of an individual animal collected bu myself right next to each other that are different colors. I have seen teeth in a jaw that are different colors. So the different colors should not be used to say they are from different animals.

I found (in my "neck of the woods") that color of bone is directly related to the weathering process. Bones decaying on the surface are a different color than those within the ground.

[chele]

We find a lot of bones that color here in the Hell Creek. So saying a fossil is fake by just the color is wrong. Different sediments produce different colors. We tend to find black bones in sand, brown bones in clay, red bones in gumbo. We have thousands of dino bone of many different colors. The same goes for teeth also. The weathering does discolor the bones greatly, some to a very bright white. We have heard this about bone color before, because it is black, it has to be Jurassic. Once we take the people to the site where black bones are found they change their mind. We have found two Triceratops, one Torosaurus, T rex, and many other bones of different species. Most of the bones are brown, some shift to black when there is a layer of black/grey soil or rock that the bones pass through. Also some bone is very dense and heavy while others are porous and very light. So you can not say a bone is fake by the weight or density.

[hxmendoza]

I've collected in the Morrison formation. I have prepped claws from the Hell Creek and the Morrison. I have restored many claws.

The claw is real. Half the tip is restored though. No doubt about it. Yes, color can be quite different even on associated finds. the claw looks much like an Allosaurus hand claw. But the finger phalanx, though it fits, seems too gracile and a little bit too long for Allosaurus. So that gives me doubts.

I propose this, much of it based on the color too. Some of you may not like hearing this. Over a decade ago, some unusually colored hand and foot claws and digits started appearing on the internet. they were sold as an unknown coelurosaur. They turned out to be from a new dinosaur, a Therizinosaur, that had been found and collected illegally in Utah. The poacher turned himself in and dealt with the consequences. But he also brought to light the new dinosaur, which Jim Kirkland eventually named Falcarius utahensis in 2004. These fossils came from the Cedar Mountain Formation (Yellow Cat Member). It caused a somewhat smallish uproar in the Paleo community, and Paleo collector community. All these fossils suddenly kind of went off the grid. It's been known that some dealers, have tried to sell these items as being from the Hell Creek in order to be rid of them. So I'm sure these fossils have changed hands several times. Kind of like a fossil laundering. So the seller may have actually passed it on, unknowingly, as being from the Hell Creek. Or, knowingly. But I have nothing really to base that on, one way or another. Look up Falcarius claw photos. I remember several of these elements having these colors. I attached a picture of the hand elements of the type specimen of Falcarius for all to compare.

Edited August 10, 2014 by hxmendoza

[Auspex]

I like that: "Fossil Laundering". Whether started intentionally or not, the mis-identifications insinuate themselves as fact as the specimens change hands, and become dropped stitches in the knitted cloth of popular paleontology. Rooting them out is a difficult job indeed!

[-Andy-]

It's not western N. America and the claw is fake.

Good grief...why do people keep circulating this stuff. Replicas are fine as long as they are labeled as such.

But, but, but.....he said blah, blah,...

I think I'll take some chunks of Dino bone out to the workshop, stick them on the lathe and make a few dozen 'claws'.

"But, but, but.....he said blah, blah,...." Isn't that what you are doing right now?

The casual way you dismiss other collector's fossils (especially one as experienced as AJ Plai) is nothing short of rude.

How about you back up your statement with some sort of evidence instead of pointing fingers and fear-mongering.

Edited August 10, 2014 by -Andy-