sixgill pete Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Several weeks ago I got a few buckets of matrix from the castle Hayne MM quarry in Castle Hayne NC. The are the matrix came from appeared to be mostly Cretaceous PeeDee Formation. However a few of the teeth I found (Pachyscyllium sp.) are from the Eocene Castle Hayne Formation so it is obviously mixed sediments. I have also found a few Cretaceous teeth in the matrix. I have a few teeth I am unsure of and am hoping to get some help in ID'ing them. First tooth is very similar to Paragaleus and probably is; 7 mm wide 6 mm slant ... The second tooth is small 2 mm wide 3 mm slant. It does not match anything I know of from the Eocene ... Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 second pic of second tooth .... the third tooth is Abdounia, should I cal it recticona or sp.? .. Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 the fourth tooth looked like a Pachyscyllium to me at first, with a broken root, however the blade is serrated. 4mm long Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 and finally I believe a ray tooth. 4mm wide. Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Don The first tooth looks like Physogaleus. I don't see the labial overhang of the crown on the root that I would expect for Paragaleus. The second looks like Galeorhinus with the labial overhang of the crown on the root. The third looks like recticona from what is there for the tooth. The ray tooth looks like Hypolophodon. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Don, I think that fourth tooth is an early form of Carcharhinus and from the Castle Hayne. It's unusual for its well-developed serrations. As a rule, the serrations don't become that coarse until the Late Eocene Jess the fourth tooth looked like a Pachyscyllium to me at first, with a broken root, however the blade is serrated. 4mm long 100_1918.JPG 100_1917.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Don, I think that fourth tooth is an early form of Carcharhinus and from the Castle Hayne. It's unusual for its well-developed serrations. As a rule, the serrations don't become that coarse until the Late Eocene Jess Jess I also think that the fourth tooth is a form of Carcharhinus but I wouldn't expect to see such well developed serrations either from the Castle Hayne. Too bad that the tooth is damaged so we can't see the complete morphology. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 Don The first tooth looks like Physogaleus. I don't see the labial overhang of the crown on the root that I would expect for Paragaleus. The second looks like Galeorhinus with the labial overhang of the crown on the root. The third looks like recticona from what is there for the tooth. The ray tooth looks like Hypolophodon. Marco Sr. Marco, thanks for the ID help. I did not consider Physogaleus for the first tooth, but after searching this, I agree with your ID. I am not familiar at all with Hypolophodon other than the few times you have mentioned it on here, are they known from the Castle Hayne? Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 Don, I think that fourth tooth is an early form of Carcharhinus and from the Castle Hayne. It's unusual for its well-developed serrations. As a rule, the serrations don't become that coarse until the Late Eocene Jess Jess I also think that the fourth tooth is a form of Carcharhinus but I wouldn't expect to see such well developed serrations either from the Castle Hayne. Too bad that the tooth is damaged so we can't see the complete morphology. Marco Sr. Jess and Marco, interesting. I also wish this tooth was complete. I never thought about it, but I don't recall finding other serrated teeth at this location other than auriculatus or Squalicorax. Is it possible there could be an overlying later layer here? Like at the Onslow quarry? Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Don I agree with the others that #1 is probably Physogaleus. I think #2 is Paleogaleus. It is probably from the Peedee Formation. They are very common in the underlying Cretaceous. Number 3 is Abdounia recticona. The fifth tooth is almost certainly Cretaceous. I think it is Rhombodus which are very common in the Peedee. The fourth tooth is unusual. I looked through my entire Castle Hayne collection this morning and I don't have a single finely serrated Carcharhinus tooth. There are reports of serrated Carcharhinus from the middle to late Eocene of Alabama and Jamaica, Western Sahara, Egypt, and other locations in Africa and Asia. Your tooth is either something new, or it is possible that it came from a Plio/Pleistocene deposit that can sporadically be found at Castle Hayne quarry. There used to be a small pile of this material where we used to park before collecting. I've never seen a tooth in it, only a few clam shells but I never bothered to pick through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 Al Dente, thanks for weighing in on this. I did consider Paleogaleus for the second tooth, but was unsure of it. For the ray tooth, I have looked at pictures of both Hypolophodon and Rhombodus and I think it compares with Rhombodus, so at this time I think that is what I will label it. The fourth tooth is interesting, Al Dente if you are going to the January meeting of NCFC I will bring it with me and let you look at it. As of right now I am planning on attending it. Marco, Jess and Al Dente; all of you and your knowledge are valuable assets to me and all members of this forum. The wealth of information and knowledge that you have spread among those of us willing to listen and learn is appreciated more than you now. To you and all members of this forum who participate in our lively discussions, Thanks! Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Marco, thanks for the ID help. I did not consider Physogaleus for the first tooth, but after searching this, I agree with your ID. I am not familiar at all with Hypolophodon other than the few times you have mentioned it on here, are they known from the Castle Hayne? Don I don't know if Hypolophodon are known from Castle Hayne. I have a good number from both the Eocene of Virginia and England. If the tooth is from the Eocene that would be my id. If it is from the Cretaceous it could be a number of other possibilities but I would defer to Al Dente on that. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Don I agree with the others that #1 is probably Physogaleus. I think #2 is Paleogaleus. It is probably from the Peedee Formation. They are very common in the underlying Cretaceous. Number 3 is Abdounia recticona. The fifth tooth is almost certainly Cretaceous. I think it is Rhombodus which are very common in the Peedee. The fourth tooth is unusual. I looked through my entire Castle Hayne collection this morning and I don't have a single finely serrated Carcharhinus tooth. There are reports of serrated Carcharhinus from the middle to late Eocene of Alabama and Jamaica, Western Sahara, Egypt, and other locations in Africa and Asia. Your tooth is either something new, or it is possible that it came from a Plio/Pleistocene deposit that can sporadically be found at Castle Hayne quarry. There used to be a small pile of this material where we used to park before collecting. I've never seen a tooth in it, only a few clam shells but I never bothered to pick through it. #2 compares very favorably to a good number of Galeorhinus that I have from the Severn Formation (Maastrichtian) of Maryland. They have the strong labial crown overhang and the basal ridges like #2. However I also have a good number of Paleogaleus from the Paleocene of Maryland which also compare very favorably to # 2. I have used the height of the root and the thickness of the crown to help to tell them apart with Galeorhinus having a relatively thin crown and thin root and Palaeogaleus having a rather thick crown and bulky and thick root. It could be that the tooth wear and not actually looking at the tooth in my hand may be distorting root height and crown thickness but I'm not 100% convinced on the Paleogaleus id although I don't see the teeth that you do from the Peedee which could for sure make me 100%. I'm also not convinced that specimens are always identified correctly by the so called experts between these two genus as there are so many common traits. #4 does not compare well with Rhombodus from the pictures. They have a high massive crown and the margino-labial and margino-lingual faces are covered with dense and marked vertical wrinkles. Also, although there is no occlusal view, the occlusal face doesn't look rhombic. Based upon the thinness of the crown alone I would say #4 is not Rhombodus. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 #4 does not compare well with Rhombodus from the pictures. They have a high massive crown and the margino-labial and margino-lingual faces are covered with dense and marked vertical wrinkles. Also, although there is no occlusal view, the occlusal face doesn't look rhombic. Based upon the thinness of the crown alone I would say #4 is not Rhombodus. Marco Sr. The identification of the Rhombodus tooth was based on comparing Don's tooth with the most likely tooth found at the site. I saw what looks like a groove on the side of the tooth that is very characteristic of the Rhombodus found here. A better picture of the side of Don's tooth would probably help with the identification. Small Rhombodus found at this site lack the verticle wrinkles. The teeth commonly deviate from being rhomb shaped to more of a hexagon. Here is a photo of one of my Rhombodus found at Castle Hayne Quarry that lacks the wrinkles and has a strong groove on the lingual face. I've included a group photo of many different sized Rhombodus from Castle Hayne Quarry. The Paleogaleus identification is based on other people's opinion. I had originally labeled my teeth as Paleogaleus and I sent a photo to a well known shark tooth expert who told me it was Galeorhinus. I relabeled my teeth Galeorhinus and sent several specimens to a different well know shark tooth expert who said they are all Paleogaleus so I changed my label again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 The identification of the Rhombodus tooth was based on comparing Don's tooth with the most likely tooth found at the site. I saw what looks like a groove on the side of the tooth that is very characteristic of the Rhombodus found here. A better picture of the side of Don's tooth would probably help with the identification. Small Rhombodus found at this site lack the verticle wrinkles. The teeth commonly deviate from being rhomb shaped to more of a hexagon. Here is a photo of one of my Rhombodus found at Castle Hayne Quarry that lacks the wrinkles and has a strong groove on the lingual face. I've included a group photo of many different sized Rhombodus from Castle Hayne Quarry. The Paleogaleus identification is based on other people's opinion. I had originally labeled my teeth as Paleogaleus and I sent a photo to a well known shark tooth expert who told me it was Galeorhinus. I relabeled my teeth Galeorhinus and sent several specimens to a different well know shark tooth expert who said they are all Paleogaleus so I changed my label again. rhomb.peedee.JPG rhombodusgroup.JPG You are definitely a good person to id Don's #4 tooth based upon all the teeth that you have found from the formation. I understand and agree with everything that you have said. My only point is when I go to Cappetta's book and look up a written description of Rhombodus I can't see a single one of any of the major identifying features of Rhombodus in any of Don's two photos. When I look at the features of the Rhombodus teeth that I have, I don't see any of the major identifying features in Don's pictures. So if #4 tooth is Rhombodus, it would be a terrible example of the genus as in its current condition it lacks so many of the diagnostic features of one. I have had the same problem with Paleogaleus and Galeorhinus. I keep going back and forth. I now try to use the crown thickness and root height but sometimes that just gets me more confused. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 To me this looks like it could be a sample of Rhombodus binkhorsti and Rhombodus levis which lack the basal wrinkles and is common in the Maastrichtian NJ. In NJ there is a Maastrichtian site that does seem to yield a few similar teeth. Larger better condition R. binkhorsti and smaller, worn R. levis. The identification of the Rhombodus tooth was based on comparing Don's tooth with the most likely tooth found at the site. I saw what looks like a groove on the side of the tooth that is very characteristic of the Rhombodus found here. A better picture of the side of Don's tooth would probably help with the identification. Small Rhombodus found at this site lack the verticle wrinkles. The teeth commonly deviate from being rhomb shaped to more of a hexagon. Here is a photo of one of my Rhombodus found at Castle Hayne Quarry that lacks the wrinkles and has a strong groove on the lingual face. I've included a group photo of many different sized Rhombodus from Castle Hayne Quarry. The Paleogaleus identification is based on other people's opinion. I had originally labeled my teeth as Paleogaleus and I sent a photo to a well known shark tooth expert who told me it was Galeorhinus. I relabeled my teeth Galeorhinus and sent several specimens to a different well know shark tooth expert who said they are all Paleogaleus so I changed my label again. rhomb.peedee.JPG rhombodusgroup.JPG ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 I might add that the singular example might just be an exmaple of abrasion, maybe only had weak wrinkles to begin with and they have been worn away. But in its current state it does look a lot more like binkhorsti than levis to me. Interesting specimen. The identification of the Rhombodus tooth was based on comparing Don's tooth with the most likely tooth found at the site. I saw what looks like a groove on the side of the tooth that is very characteristic of the Rhombodus found here. A better picture of the side of Don's tooth would probably help with the identification. Small Rhombodus found at this site lack the verticle wrinkles. The teeth commonly deviate from being rhomb shaped to more of a hexagon. Here is a photo of one of my Rhombodus found at Castle Hayne Quarry that lacks the wrinkles and has a strong groove on the lingual face. I've included a group photo of many different sized Rhombodus from Castle Hayne Quarry. The Paleogaleus identification is based on other people's opinion. I had originally labeled my teeth as Paleogaleus and I sent a photo to a well known shark tooth expert who told me it was Galeorhinus. I relabeled my teeth Galeorhinus and sent several specimens to a different well know shark tooth expert who said they are all Paleogaleus so I changed my label again. rhomb.peedee.JPG rhombodusgroup.JPG ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 To me this looks like it could be a sample of Rhombodus binkhorsti and Rhombodus levis which lack the basal wrinkles and is common in the Maastrichtian NJ. In NJ there is a Maastrichtian site that does seem to yield a few similar teeth. Larger better condition R. binkhorsti and smaller, worn R. levis. Steve A few years back there was discussion on whether Rhombodus levis was really a Rhombodus. It was said that it might be a lateral Brachyrhizodus wichitaensis. Did that controversy get resolved? Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 Here are a few more cs of the ray tooth. I know it is rather worn, and may be hard to ID for sure, but I do appreciate the time all of you have spent so far. Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Steve A few years back there was discussion on whether Rhombodus levis was really a Rhombodus. It was said that it might be a lateral Brachyrhizodus wichitaensis. Did that controversy get resolved? Marco Sr. I don't know about officially resolved, but I can't see that scenario being correct. Its a reasonable suggestion, but I have a large sample of both and the sizes just don't seem to match up at all if you were to assemble a dentition combining both. And R. levis -like teeth do occur in a Maastrichtian deposit where B. wichitaensis do not. Whether or not R. levis should be included in Rhombodus is a different question that could be posed. ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I don't know about officially resolved, but I can't see that scenario being correct. Its a reasonable suggestion, but I have a large sample of both and the sizes just don't seem to match up at all if you were to assemble a dentition combining both. And R. levis -like teeth do occur in a Maastrichtian deposit where B. wichitaensis do not. Whether or not R. levis should be included in Rhombodus is a different question that could be posed. Steve Thanks for the information. Your arguments against B. wichitaensis are convincing to me. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Don The extra pictures definitely helped for me. They ruled out what I thought the tooth might be. I would go with Al Dente's opinion on this one because he is familiar with the fauna. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 On 12/20/2013 at 6:06 PM, sixgill pete said: the fourth tooth looked like a Pachyscyllium to me at first, with a broken root, however the blade is serrated. 4mm long Don- I found a serrated tooth at Castle Hayne this past week. The first serrated Carcharhinus that I've found there. It is most likely Carcharhinus plumbeus, the sandbar shark. Must be coming from a Plio/Pleistocene layer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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