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Fossil Detective Process


Ray Eklund

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We all would like a Free Lunch or a FREE accessory or FREE samples. What is difficult in identifying fossils found for Free identification on the Fossil Forum presents a bit of a problem. A general lack of important information and associations:

1- LOCATION needs to be more specific. Not the GPS location to keep your location private, but a general area. Utah as a location is too general. Western Utah, better. Millard County, Utah gets it within 800 square miles.

2- GEOLOGY narrows down the possibilities. Cambrian to Pleistocene. You think you found a trilobite in the Cretaceous of Western Kansas. Impossible, as trilobites were extinct after the Permian. By knowing the geological age can be an easy bit of information to start. A Triassic trilobite WOULD be a find for the record books and it would be named after yourself!

3- FORMATION is even more information to narrow down the possibilities. Same as #2.

4- ASSEMBLAGE of fossils also found at this location. This would narrow down the biology. Ocean, brackish water, fresh water, terrestrial, pond, lake... etc.

5- DISCOVERY of specimen. Was it loose? Was it in a gravel bed. Was it washing out of limestone, shale, chalk...etc? Are there others like this specimen? Are they all fragmentary (shallow water and wave action would break up specimens prior to preservation).

6- CHARACTERISTICS that make you think it is a... whatever. Does the specimen have pores in a broken section resembling bone? Appear like a shell of a smooth clam or mollusk, coarse ribbed brachiopod shell, segmented like a cephalopod, nautiloid, crinoid stem section... experience will help over time! Details are important. Size is important. Be observant and then describe. Why did you pick this specimen up? Was it unique or out of place?

******* My experience in a steep learning curve. We ALL share these! *******

#1

Dr. Mark Jewett of the Kansas Geological Survey gave me my first lesson my thinking something was... which it was NOT.

I found a complete fossil turtle shell in the Pennsylvanian of Kansas City, Missouri. Not far from the Chiefs Football Stadium while it was being built south of I-70. I sent a letter to Dr. Jewett and where I had found it.

Not a turtle. Why? Because of the location and the rock formation being Pennsylvanian... NO turtles existed. It was a flattened Septarian Concretion. A cracked mud ball with calcite filings looking like a turtle shell. My description was accurate. The geological age I gave was correct. It was my interpretation that was wrong. I learned something that day! I hope this helps you as well.

#2

I was collecting fossil reptile, shark teeth and fish bone in western Kansas. I found a slab of Cretaceous, Niobrara Formation chalk with a "trilobite". It was segmented and had a front and a back end. It was about 5/8 inch long and 1/4 inch wide. Light colored shell. The front nor back could be distinguished as either end looked the same.

Because it was bound in the Cretaceous...it could not be a trilobite as they were already extinct. It was equivalent to what would be a common barnacle (chiton is probably closer to the identification). I was 16 years old on the "turtle and trilobite" find. I cannot recall what the identification of the Cretaceous find was as it was so long ago... but by providing the geology, location and my sketch of the fossil at hand... it was identified by a paleontologist that knew immediately.

#3

I was visiting with my family some friends at Fort Riley, Kansas at the age of 15. There is in an area of Permian limestones on the Army base. We adventurous ones went exploring in a rugged rocky area that was heavily wooded. While climbing around looking for fossils I found a footprint impression. The "footprint" was into a layer that was a slightly different layer on the massive limestone wall. If you can imagine a "chicken foot" pressed deeply into this Marly Limey layer was a well made impression and about 3 inches long and the depth of your small "pinky" finger. The three toes up front and one in the back...

I took a larger rock and broke this section off and took it home. To this day I wish I had checked on this find further. From what I recall from that impression it is clear to me, 49 years later... this WAS a footprint. Somehow I sold it or traded it right away and never could go any further in knowing if this WAS or WAS NOT. This I regret not following through, but at 15 years old... and a detail orientated teenager when it came to fossils... I still wonder. This could have been a remarkable find... a real possibility.

PLEASE TAKE A GOOD PHOTOGRAPH(s), offer as much information as possible and hang on to it until you are comfortable that the mystery specimen is actually something unknown! Science progresses in small steps and some of these steps are MISSING. You could have found that missing step by accident. Offer your find up to fellow Forum members. It might be a routine specimen or not...

Edited by Ray Eklund
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Congrats ! I think that this subject should be pinned !

Coco

----------------------
OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici

Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici
Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici
Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici
Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici
Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici
Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici

Un Greg...

Badges-IPFOTH.jpg.f4a8635cda47a3cc506743a8aabce700.jpg Badges-MOTM.jpg.461001e1a9db5dc29ca1c07a041a1a86.jpg

 

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Well said!

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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen

No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go.

" I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes

"can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks

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One of the most important things for someone to provide who is bringing a fossil for us to identify is :

Good attitude.

You are asking for our opinion. We will give that freely. If it doesn't match your expectation, don't go all snarky on us - we do the best we can with what we have - which is often a fuzzy photograph taken without enough light and without a scale, and no information. We'll be patient, and ask for information, or for a better photograph. You be patient if we don't snap an answer back at you within 15 minutes of your post. Some of us have jobs, others of us (like me) just like to slack off once in a while - we'll get to it. I usually don't answer questions about invertebrates, or fish - they just aren't my area, so you'll have to wait until a fish maven shows up, or one of our invertebrates. I mean, one of our people who knows about vertebrates!

A good attitude goes a long way toward getting good service here.

Rich

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The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence".

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Ray, Nicely said and hopefully helpful to all our newbies and visitors. And Rich has added a very important point about what to expect and how to behave on the forum.

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Congrats ! I think that this subject should be pinned !

Coco

I thought the same, Coco, but my steaks were about to burn on the grill... :D

Well said, Ray. It will go nicely with the other pinned topics. ;)

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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I thought the same, Coco, but my steaks were about to burn on the grill... :D

Well said, Ray. It will go nicely with the other pinned topics. ;)

You are being too generous in my attempt to those members with an "unknown" by providing some difficult requests of information needed to identify a fossil found by a Forum member. I will attempt to clean up my language used in my first post, some to edit the message, and also adding what I consider other important details that help in all of the finds by members that stretch the imagination .

Fossil Identification is both an ART and a factor of EXPERIENCE. Both are skills fine tuned with field work and there is no experienced Forum member who wants to have a question to go unanswered. RichW9090 understands, just like Herb, and that is the point that some unknowns need to be recognized by the right person at the right time.

Edited by Ray Eklund
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  • 2 months later...

I was making some unsolicited comments on another Topic and it made some sense to me to add it onto this Topic.

I find it very important to understand the language of the Professional Paleontologist and Geologist. The terminology can give a layman, like myself, detailed directions to understand Where, When, What and Why this fossil exists.

The finding of a fossil is no different than picking up a plastic bag stuck on a barbed wire fence. It is an object that might appear to be out of place... but this was its home. You must ask ourselves the four W's. Where, When, What and Why.

Where: The Geographic Location. Inlier. Outlier. Facies. How do you know where? It is WHERE you are presently standing.

When: The Geological Period. The Formation. The Sedimentology- limestone, shale, sandstone, coal seam, concretions in a shale.

What: Invertebrate. Plant. Vertebrate. Trace Fossil. Unknown. Is this fossil segmented? Does it resemble anything living today? What kind of other fossils are found with this unidentified fossil. Was it found in an area disturbed by construction? Could it possible been brought into the area by glacial activity? You must question before you can understand. By this time you would be ready to ask fellow Forum members to identify your find.

Why: Why is this found at this place? Is is unusual when compared to what is usually found? Is the color different? Why did this catch your attention? Was is loose or cemented onto matrix? Do the fossils at this site appear to be dismembered and scattered, or complete and isolated? You must question WHY this was found the way it laid and make some judgement if it washed from a higher formation or is it from the formation you found and collected the specimen. It is important in the process of identification.

I have always realized that when I found or uncovered a fossil... this was where it had died. I cannot imagine what an Anthropologist is thinking when a Hominid is discovered, a direct relative to modern Humans, and apply the 4 W's and wonder what the last thoughts may have been. These finds are carefully document just because the Fossil cannot speak to you... but the conditions and environment the fossil was found... speaks through the terminology of a geologist, paleontologist or anthropologist. These terms create new ideas and debates within the scientific community. All are positive. All!

The conditions had to be favorable to preserve a soft bodied tissue and more flexible when it is a hard thick shell of a brachiopod or cephalopod. Once you remove a fossil from the discovery, all of this information is lost, unless you take some notes and make some observations. Just trying to understand why this trilobite died at this spot, or a fossil mammal skull in the Oligocene Badlands is found... with no skeleton attached... questions come up. By understanding the 4 W's... you can apply this information in your future searches. More discoveries.

The 4 W's are something I just made up. By understanding these questions, you will develop a structured process to identify what you have discovered or, at least, be able to present the conditions of your find to those who might be able to help.

No fossil "just happened to be". There are reasons for its demise. IT IS YOUR JOB TO UNDERSTAND to the best of your ability.

100,000,000 years from now, 2014 will be found in a deeply buried sedimentary rock, capped with volcanics. A discovery will be made and these questions will come into the minds of the curious explorers. You could be one of the many specimens to be recovered. Now you can add WHO to the 4 W's, but I hope you understand that no matter how small or insignificant a fossil may appear to you...it could be very important to the understanding on why we are here today and what forces made this possible.

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  • 4 months later...
  • 1 month later...

Seriously people would go all snarky for you if what you said was not what they expected? Like (taking an example from OP) they thought it must have been a turtle and you cleared and proved it was not? My gosh, that's so impolite! You;re doing something for free, in your spare time and some would complain about it instead of saying thanks I appreciate it? People are so ungrateful.

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People are also human, in all their glory and for better or worse. ;)

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"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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  • 1 year later...

You are being too generous in my attempt to those members with an "unknown" by providing some difficult requests of information needed to identify a fossil found by a Forum member. I will attempt to clean up my language used in my first post, some to edit the message, and also adding what I consider other important details that help in all of the finds by members that stretch the imagination .

Fossil Identification is both an ART and a factor of EXPERIENCE. Both are skills fine tuned with field work and there is no experienced Forum member who wants to have a question to go unanswered. RichW9090 understands, just like Herb, and that is the point that some unknowns need to be recognized by the right person at the right time.

Ray,

The art and experience comment seems right. I just want to express my gratitude to all the experienced members for helping to identify my finds. I just started this hobby after I retired recently, and the feedback and other suggestions I get here are an enormous help. I am learning what things are *not* fossils that I can safely ignore, for example. Just going out and digging every day is helping to develop my eye for spotting things. Between this forum, Internet searches, and thumbing through books in the library, I am learning so much. Again, thanks for everyone's help.

Craig Hyatt

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Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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...I am learning what things are *not* fossils that I can safely ignore...

There is not a member here who does not have a story about ignoring something, and learning later that it was actually fairly special...

When in doubt, keep it and ask! Some of the Forum's most educational topics are about "not fossils", and are great opportunities for critical comparison with the fossils they resemble. :)

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"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley

>Paleontology is an evolving science.

>May your wonders never cease!

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There is not a member here who does not have a story about ignoring something, and learning later that it was actually fairly special...

When in doubt, keep it and ask! Some of the Forum's most educational topics are about "not fossils", and are great opportunities for critical comparison with the fossils they resemble. :)

This raises a good point for a noob like me... Early on, I would take forever chipping away at rocks and picking up everything that vaguely looked like a fossil. Now I bust a few rocks and if I don't see anything, I move to a new area. I also stopped collecting anything that isn't clearly awesome -- like it has legs or fins. :-) I do take photos of anything that's interesting but doesn't meet the awesome test.

My theory is that early in the learning curve I want to gain knowledge and experience, even if I waste some good specimens because I break them or leave them behind. It reminds me of how I used to tear up old radios when I was a kid. I had no idea what I was looking at, but over time I learned what all the components were. Then I grew up to become an EE.

Either way, I am learning so much, and I really enjoy just getting out there and digging. Every day is a new adventure. :-)

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Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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Craig... another tip about fossil hunting is that it is good to know the tiniest fragments of what you are looking for. The first sign of a promising site is that there are small chunks of broken fossils, and that means it is worth more investigation. When the conditions for fossilization are good, they are very good, and when they are not, the formation is often totally barren. These tiny fragments might not be recognizable at first as fossils, but they can lead you to the rich formations.

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Craig... another tip about fossil hunting is that it is good to know the tiniest fragments of what you are looking for. The first sign of a promising site is that there are small chunks of broken fossils, and that means it is worth more investigation. When the conditions for fossilization are good, they are very good, and when they are not, the formation is often totally barren. These tiny fragments might not be recognizable at first as fossils, but they can lead you to the rich formations.

So true. Since I'm new, I don't even know what to look for. I spent the whole morning digging through a layer of beach sand hoping to find some shells to date the layer. I just found a few fragments. There were inclusions of soft shale in the layer that I kept breaking because they didn't look like anything to me. I bet some of them were fossils. I am hoping that over time I'll refine my eye and learn to pick out the good stuff.

Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer

Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year

Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert

Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous

Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk

Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus

Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html

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  • 2 weeks later...

I used to have the largest fossil education site on the web, and it included some mention of evolution. I had to remove my email address and leave it as a "view-only" site because I was bombarded by hostile lunatics. I wouldn't want that to happen to this site. It is quite lovely here... peaceful... friendly... censored... :D

That's right, i was in another forum where some pretentious people had very hard hurtful and abusive language against others because they were beginners and knew little or because they weren't french and had difficulties to communicate. I really didn't find that spirit here and i'm very glad of this forum. :D

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theme-celtique.png.bbc4d5765974b5daba0607d157eecfed.png.7c09081f292875c94595c562a862958c.png

"On ne voit bien que par le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry)

"We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes."

 

In memory of Doren

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This raises a good point for a noob like me... Early on, I would take forever chipping away at rocks and picking up everything that vaguely looked like a fossil. Now I bust a few rocks and if I don't see anything, I move to a new area. I also stopped collecting anything that isn't clearly awesome -- like it has legs or fins. :-) I do take photos of anything that's interesting but doesn't meet the awesome test.

My theory is that early in the learning curve I want to gain knowledge and experience, even if I waste some good specimens because I break them or leave them behind. It reminds me of how I used to tear up old radios when I was a kid. I had no idea what I was looking at, but over time I learned what all the components were. Then I grew up to become an EE.

Either way, I am learning so much, and I really enjoy just getting out there and digging. Every day is a new adventure. :-)

I also am in that stage in my evolution of fossil hunter. I look at all stones that catch my eyes everywhere i am. Also for now i do not have time enough to go hunting in the most nearby sites.

theme-celtique.png.bbc4d5765974b5daba0607d157eecfed.png.7c09081f292875c94595c562a862958c.png

"On ne voit bien que par le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry)

"We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes."

 

In memory of Doren

photo-thumb-12286.jpg.878620deab804c0e4e53f3eab4625b4c.jpg

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That's right, i was in another forum where some pretentious people had very hard hurtful and abusive language against others because they were beginners and knew little or because they weren't french and had difficulties to communicate. I really didn't find that spirit here and i'm very glad of this forum. :D

Yes....

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello,

I completely agree with Ray. The science is the science and the scientific method is used to discover how our world works. I can believe that the earth is plain, but the harsh reality is that the earth is round (or eliptical). We can respect all beliefs, but they are only beliefs, not science. Anybody can believe anything, but the scientific community does not have to be careful to not offend any belief. Moreover, I think that it isn´t correct to put all the opinions in the same bag (it is not the same an opinion based in facts, that an opinion based in beliefs).

To end my post I want to say that I think that the fossils history is the evolution history, and theses two concepts can´t be dissociated.

I think that the only limit is to be polite with everybody.

If someone is polite I don´t understand that someone censure this opinion, and more when this opinon is based on science.

Xavi

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