Yes, Discovering Undescribed Fossils Is Still Possible

[Missourian]

Although you may have to settle for more obscure types of fossils, discoveries of fossils new to science are still possible.

I just read a paper that mentioned a Mr. Pohl who hunted for conodonts, fish and other things in a Pennsylvanian black shale in Illinois. Some of the 'other things' turned out to be two sponge genera, Diagonodictya and Pohlispongia, that were unknown until he reported them. The paper noted that only one of each were found, and that they were the only known specimens.

If you're interested, the paper reference is:

J. KEITH RIGBY and PETER von BITTER
SPONGES AND ASSOCIATED FOSSILS FROM THE PENNSYLVANIAN CARBONDALE FORMATION OF NORTHWESTERN ILLINOIS
Journal of Paleontology 79(3):460-468. 2005 (May)

[Triops808]

Congratulations to Mr. Pohl and J. Rigby and Peter V. Bitter:) Thank you for sharing this Missourian, it's fun to know Paleontology is still evolving and growing.

[MarcoSr]

There are many micro shark and ray teeth that have not been described by science. Even more described species which have not been reported from North America. I have a number of both of these. I'm still deciding where I can donate them so papers can be written. The problem is that the paleontologists who want to describe them are associated with museums in France or SC etc. I really want to donate them to a museum in VA or MD but can't seem to get the local paleontologists to even look at them I also have a group of Eocene bird bones that might contain new species. I haven't been able to get anyone to look at these. Most can be seen at the below link.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/41375-some-eocene-bird-bones-from-my-collection/?hl=bird

Marco Sr.

[cowsharks]

There are many micro shark and ray teeth that have not been described by science. Even more described species which have not been reported from North America. I have a number of both of these. I'm still deciding where I can donate them so papers can be written. The problem is that the paleontologists who want to describe them are associated with museums in France or SC etc. I really want to donate them to a museum in VA or MD but can't seem to get the local paleontologists to even look at them I also have a group of Eocene bird bones that might contain new species. I haven't been able to get anyone to look at these. Most can be seen at the below link.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/41375-some-eocene-bird-bones-from-my-collection/?hl=bird

Marco Sr.

Marco, did you contact Dr. Storr's Olson (<link>)? I worked with him when I donated all of my Muddy Creek bird bones to the Smithsonian.

vr,

Daryl.

[MarcoSr]

Marco, did you contact Dr. Storr's Olson (<link>)? I worked with him when I donated all of my Muddy Creek bird bones to the Smithsonian.

vr,

Daryl.

Daryl

I tried years back but never got a response back. I'm not a big fan of the Smithsonian for many reasons based upon personal experience with certain paleontologists from there but there are a few there that I do like and have donated material through them.

Marco Sr.

[Taogan]

You don't have to discover obscure genera, there are plenty of things out there undescribed. It's only 28 years since Baryonyx walkeri was named after the amateur that found it. Insects and fossils offer a wealth of opportunities for people to discover something new, someone I know from my entomological hobby discovered a new living suborder only a dozen years ago. All we need is for professionals an amateurs to cooperate.

[Wrangellian]

I am not a scientist so I can't describe anything new that I find by myself, but I have found things that I can't ID, and new things are turning up all the time. So far "only" bivalves and snails (maybe ammos) but I would be happy to have a new clam or snail to my credit! I have met other amateurs who have also.

I thought I was going to be helping a certain scientist with some baculites I found but he seems somewhat aloof.. I don't know if there was a miscommunication there or what, but I have not had the easiest time cooperating with the pros.

[Missourian]

I thought I was going to be helping a certain scientist with some baculites I found but he seems somewhat aloof.. I don't know if there was a miscommunication there or what, but I have not had the easiest time cooperating with the pros.

That's been my experience as well. I guess they've dealt with too many false alarms and don't bother following up anymore.

It'd be interesting to find out how Mr. Pohl brought his sponges to the attention of paleontologists. Maybe it's a matter of providing as much information as possible about the specimens and related geology. Bringing in just a roundish thing on a piece of shale from Illinois may have gotten just a shrug of the shoulders.

[PRK]

It's a matter of seeing the material is available(first hand)to the researcher that is working on that particular fossil at that time. This is why I prefer to see my material gets into a research institution. Work on these specimens may not be immediate, maybe not even in our lifetimes , but they WILL be available for that new upcoming researcher down the road.

BTW: after you are gone where do you think those obscure specimens will end up?, the specimens most people are thinking should be exceptional study material are not show pieces to begin with. Remember to include the proper/detailed locality info, or museums WILL turn it away. Anyway--- what good are they doing in boxes in YOUR basement?

[Wrangellian]

That's been my experience as well. I guess they've dealt with too many false alarms and don't bother following up anymore.

It'd be interesting to find out how Mr. Pohl brought his sponges to the attention of paleontologists. Maybe it's a matter of providing as much information as possible about the specimens and related geology. Bringing in just a roundish thing on a piece of shale from Illinois may have gotten just a shrug of the shoulders.

Mine was no false alarm - I sent him pics and told him the location, and it grabbed his attention such that he came up and had me show him the site. He took one of my specimens back home to peel it and get a look at the sutures to be able to ID it, and said that if it were used in a paper I would get to choose which museum it would end up in. Later I saw him when he invited me on a field trip, and told me the ID he had come up with (something new to the Island), and long story short, I have not heard back from him and he doesn't respond to my emails (2 or 3 of them so far). Either he's just too busy (too busy to acknowledge an email?) or he got the wrong impression of me in terms of being collaborator. I do seem to have that effect on people so that's what I'm worried about.

I am perfectly willing to submit specimens for study and have them put into one of the local museums, but I am not going to do it for nothing. Either I want my collecting trips comped or my name in a paper, or something - I will not just send someone a fossil and have it disappear. I'd rather sell my collection sometime down the road than to have nothing to show for my efforts giving scientists fodder for their career. I just got back from another arduous day (4 days in a row) up my local mtn, wondering "why do I put myself thru all this backbreaking, scar-generating, frustrating work extracting fossils from uncooperative shale, and cluttering my house with them?" They may not be of much use in my basement, but I hope someday they will be used for science and I will get some credit, or else I think I will sell them. One or the other. I am not doing this for nothing, that is for sure.

I'm not saying the scientist who I am referring to (but will not name) is unethical - I have been assured that he is and I know he is a very busy guy, so maybe things will sort themselves out in due time.

[MB]

There are many micro shark and ray teeth that have not been described by science. Even more described species which have not been reported from North America. I have a number of both of these. I'm still deciding where I can donate them so papers can be written. The problem is that the paleontologists who want to describe them are associated with museums in France or SC etc. I really want to donate them to a museum in VA or MD but can't seem to get the local paleontologists to even look at them I also have a group of Eocene bird bones that might contain new species. I haven't been able to get anyone to look at these. Most can be seen at the below link.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/41375-some-eocene-bird-bones-from-my-collection/?hl=bird

Marco Sr.

Marco, you always can donate your material to the Museum you decide.

Then, if scientists are interested on it they ask your material in loan (Museum to Museum), thus your material will be always housed in the Museum you choosed.

[Plax]

My feeling is that many professionals have job duties other than publishing on fossils. Throw in procrastination and things just fade into the past. Have had the experience of having a deceased european expert's staff ask me what I wanted to do with the fossils I gave to him a couple of decades ago. Other paleontologists published on the finds in the meantime without initial knowledge of my specimens. Conversely I have had specimens published upon within a year. Professional paleontologists are no different than the rest of us human beings. There are doers and there are procrastinators. Am aware of a recent publication that was about 35 years in the making.

For our part, I believe we should get undescribed specimens into the hands of those that will do the most with them. Being thanked in the acknowledgments is a great feeling.

[MarcoSr]

Marco, you always can donate your material to the Museum you decide.

Then, if scientists are interested on it they ask your material in loan (Museum to Museum), thus your material will be always housed in the Museum you choosed.

The dilemma that I face is no one at my local museums currently wants to publish an article or paper on the specimens. So if I donate to them, the specimens won't get described by them, at least in the present time. The Paleontologists who want to write the papers won't do so if I don't donate the specimens to the museums that they are associated with. Part of the reason is that these museums can help to get the papers published through certain publishers. With one Paleontologist who wants me to donate to a museum in France, the curator of that museum with his influence will help the Paleontologist get the papers published through European publishers. If I donate to museums in the US those publishers probably won't even publish the papers or would put them in a queue that would take years for the papers to be published.

Marco Sr.

[cowsharks]

The dilemma that I face is no one at my local museums currently wants to publish an article or paper on the specimens. So if I donate to them, the specimens won't get described by them, at least in the present time. The Paleontologists who want to write the papers won't do so if I don't donate the specimens to the museums that they are associated with. Part of the reason is that these museums can help to get the papers published through certain publishers. With one Paleontologist who wants me to donate to a museum in France, the curator of that museum with his influence will help the Paleontologist get the papers published through European publishers. If I donate to museums in the US those publishers probably won't even publish the papers or would put them in a queue that would take years for the papers to be published.

Marco Sr.

Marco, I've encountered the same issue(s) and frustration(s) with not being able to find anyone in the US interested in certain specimens for research; A couple Paleontologists from Germany and France were very interested in my Paleocene Otolith collection for papers they were writing, but they required me to donate the specimens. The same happened with my collection of Miocene Plinthicus stingray teeth. I really prefer that the specimens stay within the US, but maybe my reasons and thinking were too narrow? I figured there must be someone at the Smithsonian or elsewhere i nthe country (US) that might want/need these specimens for research.

Daryl.

[MarcoSr]

Marco, I've encountered the same issue(s) and frustration(s) with not being able to find anyone in the US interested in certain specimens for research; A couple Paleontologists from Germany and France were very interested in my Paleocene Otolith collection for papers they were writing, but they required me to donate the specimens. The same happened with my collection of Miocene Plinthicus stingray teeth. I really prefer that the specimens stay within the US, but maybe my reasons and thinking were too narrow? I figured there must be someone at the Smithsonian or elsewhere i nthe country (US) that might want/need these specimens for research.

Daryl.

Daryl

I have tried to peak the interests of different folks at the Smithsonian over the years. They were interested in some of my mammal specimens which I donated and a paper was written. There wasn't a lot of interest in the shark and ray material that I have even though I was told that the specimens looked like new genus/species. I could have had a new species of Paleocene Chimaera described by a renowned Paleontologist but I would have had to donate the specimens to a museum in SC. I wanted to donate them to a museum in MD. If you want shark and ray specimens described, the best way to make that happen is to donate them to Cappetta's museum in France. A Paleontologist wanted to describe a number of new genus/species from some of my ray and shark specimens but I would have had to donate to Cappetta's museum in France and I wanted to keep them in the US since they were from MD, VA and NJ. I guess you need to find some new mammal or dinosaur to get much interest here in the US. Like I've said before, I can't even get anyone to even look at my Eocene bird bones.

Marco Sr.

[Plax]

Marco,

It's none of my business, but why do the fossils have to be in state? Perhaps you could ask for additional specimens other than the type go to the Smithsonian? If the specimens are acceptable for donation to the museum of your choice perhaps you could have some of them accessioned where you want them and include the numbered specimens in what you send the person publishing on them. Would think that this should be amenable to them. Papers often have specimens cited from various institutions.

I agree with previous statements that new specimens shouldn't languish in drawers unpublished. They simply aren't "significant" to those institutions and staff. A future researcher may rediscover them but it isn't a certainty in our lifetimes. The publication of any new specimens should take priority over the institution. Just my opinion of course....

Plax

[MarcoSr]

Marco,

It's none of my business, but why do the fossils have to be in state? Perhaps you could ask for additional specimens other than the type go to the Smithsonian? If the specimens are acceptable for donation to the museum of your choice perhaps you could have some of them accessioned where you want them and include the numbered specimens in what you send the person publishing on them. Would think that this should be amenable to them. Papers often have specimens cited from various institutions.

I agree with previous statements that new specimens shouldn't languish in drawers unpublished. They simply aren't "significant" to those institutions and staff. A future researcher may rediscover them but it isn't a certainty in our lifetimes. The publication of any new specimens should take priority over the institution. Just my opinion of course....

Plax

Most of the new genus/species were found in MD or VA. I just feel that they should be curated close to where they were found versus France or even SC. It allows local collectors to see/study them in person in the museum collections which is important to me. If I had a lot of each new genus/species I could split them up. But unfortunately I only have a limited number of each that the Paleontologists want to keep together.

Marco Sr.

[toolbox82]

With the discovery of the site here on our property, I was very fortunate to have made the initial phone call to a professor at Texas A&M that was genuinely interested in what it was that was discovered. I would have to say the key is to find that one person that has a true passion for teaching and researching. I feel that I am very lucky to have made contact with this type of individual.

This Cowry shell is a possible candidate for a new species. This shell was a total unexpected find and has raised more questions of the environment here. Cowries are normally found on hard rocky bottoms, coral reefs feeding on algae. The presence of the cowry indicates this was a tropical area with warm sea.

carl

[Bev]

Does anyone know of a comprehensive list of paleontologists are are working on... Or interested in...

I woud think that these people are all interconnected, have specialties and interests, and there must be a list somewhere. OR, maybe it is time for a list?

Way back when... I published a magazine on wild horses the BLM actually used my list in the magazine to get in touch with one another!!! The Bureau of Land Management did not have a comprehensive list of their wild horse facilities or wild horse specialists - think about that! Granted, it was the '80s.

Imagine a way that every paleontologist and graduate student in the world could voluntarily be on stating their interests. Then amateurs could contact the people interested in what they may have.

Just a thought.

Bev

[jpc]

There are many micro shark and ray teeth that have not been described by science. Even more described species which have not been reported from North America. I have a number of both of these. I'm still deciding where I can donate them so papers can be written. The problem is that the paleontologists who want to describe them are associated with museums in France or SC etc. I really want to donate them to a museum in VA or MD but can't seem to get the local paleontologists to even look at them I also have a group of Eocene bird bones that might contain new species. I haven't been able to get anyone to look at these. Most can be seen at the below link.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/41375-some-eocene-bird-bones-from-my-collection/?hl=bird

Marco Sr.

Eocene Bird BOnes...? Have you contacted Julia Clarke at UT Austin?

Bev- I don't thin that list exists.. what paleontologists are working on what animals. A lot of that is just done by networking.

[Missourian]

Would it be possible for mere amateurs like us to browse through collections reposited in various institutions? Who knows if the next big discovery comes after a TFF member blows some dust off of some 100-year-old specimens.

[MarleysGh0st]

Does anyone know of a comprehensive list of paleontologists are are working on... Or interested in...

I haven't heard of any such list. There are sites like the Paleobiology Database and iDigBio that try to assemble comprehensive data about collections, but not, as far as I know, about researchers.

Scientists generally develop a particular expertise as a grad student and maintain that focus for the rest of their careers, so if you want to know who works with Ordovician cephalopods, for example, you should try Google Scholar and see who has been writing papers on them; they'll probably continue to do so.

[MarleysGh0st]

Would it be possible for mere amateurs like us to browse through collections reposited in various institutions? Who knows if the next big discovery comes after a TFF member blows some dust off of some 100-year-old specimens.

The collections are usually open to researchers affiliated with a university or other institution. If you're an amateur, the trick would be demonstrating that you're qualified to do what you say you want to do. Collection managers don't have the time to supervise strangers who might not have a clue.

[MarcoSr]

Eocene Bird BOnes...? Have you contacted Julia Clarke at UT Austin?

Bev- I don't thin that list exists.. what paleontologists are working on what animals. A lot of that is just done by networking.

Jean-Pierre

Thank you for the contact. Based upon advice from Daryl and George P. I'm going to contact Dr. Olson again. I'll send him an e-mail today. If I don't hear anything back in 3 or 4 weeks I'll then try Julia Clarke.

Marco Sr.

[cowsharks]

Jean-Pierre

Thank you for the contact. Based upon advice from Daryl and George P. I'm going to contact Dr. Olson again. I'll send him an e-mail today. If I don't hear anything back in 3 or 4 weeks I'll then try Julia Clarke.

Marco Sr.

Marco, all the times I dealt with Dr. Olson, he usually responded within a day or a few days - unless he was in the field traveling. I got to meet him in person at the Smithsonian when I was donating my bird bones I collected at Muddy Creek. He's a real friendly, down to earth kind of guy. I don't remember the name of the young guy working for him at the time, but he was real nice as well and always made sure I received donation letters from the museum. These guys were fun to work with so I hope you're able to make contact with him. It would be neat if they came out with an updated book on the "newer" specimens that were found there like the mammal teeth, bird bones, and some of the micro shark/ray teeth that I've seen from your collection and John Fitez's collection.

Daryl.