Yes, Discovering Undescribed Fossils Is Still Possible

[MarcoSr]

Marco, all the times I dealt with Dr. Olson, he usually responded within a day or a few days - unless he was in the field traveling. I got to meet him in person at the Smithsonian when I was donating my bird bones I collected at Muddy Creek. He's a real friendly, down to earth kind of guy. I don't remember the name of the young guy working for him at the time, but he was real nice as well and always made sure I received donation letters from the museum. These guys were fun to work with so I hope you're able to make contact with him. It would be neat if they came out with an updated book on the "newer" specimens that were found there like the mammal teeth, bird bones, and some of the micro shark/ray teeth that I've seen from your collection and John Fitez's collection.

Daryl.

Daryl

Thanks for the input. There may be a paper coming out on some of the micro shark/ray species not in the original Publication 152. A renowned Paleontologist contacted me out of the blue in 2012 and asked if I could send him some pictures from my collection. After several months of sending pictures and really peaking his interest, he came to VA and spent 5 days at my house looking at my Eocene collection. I had no problem donating specimens but didn't want to donate them to a museum in France. As a result of what he saw in my collection, he later contacted several other collectors and I believe that he is using their material for his paper. I still have a bunch of species that I doubt that they have but I'll see that when the paper comes out. I could have had multiple shark and ray species named after me and Mel but it was more important to me to curate the specimens in the US, preferably MD, VA or DC.

Marco Sr.

[erose]

Daryl

Thanks for the input. There may be a paper coming out on some of the micro shark/ray species not in the original Publication 152. A renowned Paleontologist contacted me out of the blue in 2012 and asked if I could send him some pictures from my collection. After several months of sending pictures and really peaking his interest, he came to VA and spent 5 days at my house looking at my Eocene collection. I had no problem donating specimens but didn't want to donate them to a museum in France. As a result of what he saw in my collection, he later contacted several other collectors and I believe that he is using their material for his paper. I still have a bunch of species that I doubt that they have but I'll see that when the paper comes out. I could have had multiple shark and ray species named after me and Mel but it was more important to me to curate the specimens in the US, preferably MD, VA or DC.

Marco Sr.

Interesting. I believe the fossils could have been deposited in a US museum, maybe even one close to you in Virginia or DC. They just need to be an accessible museum not the one he is affiliated with. Of course he may have needed to take them back with him for the actual work but that is something else. Then again his home institution may have their own policies about what material can be worked on or not.

I know one of our FF members has placed a specimen in the collection at the University of Texas but I don't believe the author he is working with is local. But he, who's name shall not be mentioned, could correct me on that.

I know that in just the last couple of years several of us here in Central Texas have been collecting specimens for at least three unidentified and un-described echinoids from the Glen Rose Formation (Albian). And that came on the heals of a very recent paper (Smith & Rader, 2009) that had done an excellent job of evaluating the known and a few unknown echinoids from that formation. That paper is what sent all of us back into the hills to see if we could locate the various species described. We then proceeded to notice others not described.

[Wrangellian]

> Would it be possible for mere amateurs like us to browse through collections reposited in various institutions?

> Who knows if the next big discovery comes after a TFF member blows some dust off of some 100-year-old specimens.

The collections are usually open to researchers affiliated with a university or other institution. If you're an amateur, the trick would be demonstrating that you're qualified to do what you say you want to do. Collection managers don't have the time to supervise strangers who might not have a clue.

I wonder what it would take - anything short of showing you have a degree?

I have been offered a tour of the RBCM fossil collection but that is because I donated a specimen to them. I don't otherwise have any professional qualifications, just the expertise of a collector. (I still haven't taken them up on that offer.) Seems to me they should be as accommodating as they can (I realize time is a factor); you never know when some amateur like one of us, as Missourian says, might look at their collections and spot something they failed to notice. I can think of one instance where I have found something in the field that when I showed it to someone more knowledgeable than myself and proposed a general ID, he was skeptical. I later (with FF help) got my ID confirmed and he had to eat crow!

If there are 100-year-old specimens languishing in back drawers, that tells me that there aren't enough people looking at them. The curators don't even seem to know what they have (which I guess is understandable if the collection is that big).

Edited January 29, 2014 by Wrangellian

[Missourian]

If there are 100-year-old specimens languishing in back drawers, that tells me that there aren't enough people looking at them. The curators don't even seem to know what they have (which I guess is understandable if the collection is that big).

Worse yet, how much material has been tossed in the trash because they needed the space and didn't think there was anything worthwhile. I've heard of one museum in the Midwest that did just that (though it is arguable that whole Pennsylvanian crinoids found by Sid Hare in the 19th century are quite worthwhile. Since what I heard was hearsay, I won't mention the name of the institution. I do know they removed their mineral & fossil exibit at one point to put in a gift store).

[MarcoSr]

> Would it be possible for mere amateurs like us to browse through collections reposited in various institutions?

I wonder what it would take - anything short of showing you have a degree?

If you have donated material and/or assisted with excavations and/or know some of the paleontologists from a museum, you can usually get to see parts of that museum's collection as an amateur. You can also visit other museums with Paleontologists who are friends or with their introductions of you to the other museum curators.

As an update, I did send an e-mail to Dr. Olson on my Eocene bird bones and got almost an immediate response back. Although he has for the most part stopped working on early Tertiary birds, he was interested in looking at my specimens. However, being an emeritus of the Smithsonian, he only gets back there sporadically. I just need to work out getting the bones to the Smithsonian so he can look at them the next time he is back.

Marco Sr.

[Acryzona]

I am not a scientist so I can't describe anything new that I find by myself, but I have found things that I can't ID, and new things are turning up all the time.

Wrangellian, don't sell yourself short. There are a number of people, including yourself, on this Forum who are very knowlegdable about fossils in a specific geographic or stratigraphic area or a particular type of fossil. In my opinion, those people are just as qualified as professionals to describe new finds provided that the find is properly researched. The paleo club I belong to publishes an irregular peer-reviewed journal, Mosasaur, with articles written by both professionals and amatuers. I'm sure there are other similar publications.

Two years ago, I found what I thought was a new Devonian ostracod and sent specimens to two specialists. While they both agreed it was at least a new species if not genus, I was told that if I wanted to do the taxonomy, I'd be on my own. I interpreted that to mean that it could be published but I'd have to do it. So I've started researching the genus and family to see where it would fit and hope some day to publish it in the Mosasaur.

Just my two cents...

Acryzona

Edited January 29, 2014 by Acryzona

[jpc]

As a collections manger in a small museum full of fossils, I will chime in about amateurs getting to peruse the collections...

My job as collections manager is to take care of the collections and make sure they are well taken care of basically forever for the people of the State of Wyoming. If I let every Joe Amateur in to see if we have "anything cool" in there I would lose my job and many a fossil would make its way out of our collections. Bad Museum Practice. Now on the other hand, you develop a relationship with me and convince me you are a) knowledgeable about Taxon X and honest and trustable... I would be happy to let you have a look at our X's and put a name on all of therm, cuz frankly I don't know squat about X's and we could use your help. And if you find something new to science while you are in there we all win.

So, I hate to say it, but just any ole amateur is going to have a hard time getting to see what is in the museum's storage, but build yourself a reputation and maybe... of course by the time you've done that you just might be more than just any ole amateur.

As a starting point, most folks I have seen here on TFF have a god running start to at least get a guided tour if I have the time when they pass through.

[Missourian]

In my opinion, those people are just as qualified as professionals to describe new finds provided that the find is properly researched. The paleo club I belong to publishes an irregular peer-reviewed journal, Mosasaur, with articles written by both professionals and amatuers. I'm sure there are other similar publications.

It would be good to know how to do proper research. I've toyed with the idea of publishing something (well, more like.... I wondered what it'd be like). There certainly is much more involved than one would first think. I could learn the proper terminology for anatomic features, form, structure, texture, etc., etc., and then measure and describe the specimens. And then there is the matter of doing micro work including thin-sectioning. And don't forget about geologic and stratigraphic context, as well as paleoecological, taphonomic and diagenetic considerations. Oh, and there is the matter of being able to search through the vast body of literature, including in several journals that are not in my native language, in order to compare my fossils with others (and find out if they have been described already or not). And finally, the specimens would probably have to be reposted in some recognized institution for it to 'count'. At this point, I can only do research for my own private use (or for anyone who would happened to be interested).

Edited January 29, 2014 by Missourian

[Wrangellian]

It would be good to know how to do proper research. I've toyed with the idea of publishing something (well, more like.... I wondered what it'd be like). There certainly is much more involved than one would first think. I can learn the proper terminology for anatomic features, form, structure, texture, etc., etc., and then measure and describe the specimens. And then there is the matter of doing micro work including thin-sectioning. And don't forget about geologic and stratigraphic context, as well as paleoecological, taphonomic and diagenetic considerations. Oh, and there is the matter of being able to search through the vast body of literature, including in several journals that are not in my native language, in order to compare my fossils with others (and find out if they have been described already or not). And finally, the specimens probably have to be reposted in some recognized institution for it to 'count'. At this point, I can only do research for my own private use (or for anyone who would happened to be interested).

I am in a similar boat. I can see why people go to university to be able do this kind of work and have access and connections that would be needed to describe something new. A certain Dr from Seattle wanted to include me in writing a paper on the baculites I showed him but I had to express my lack of confidence that I could be of any use. I guess I could do all the measuring etc, as you mention but not much else. I don't have access to the literature or anything (and most of that is from him if it's to do with ammonites and the stratigraphy here).. Anyway I haven't heard back from him lately so I don't know if that will go anywhere. Would be quite the feather in my cap if it did..

As for museums getting rid of specimens... Wow. I would hope they offer things to other institutions, let someone look them over first before actually chucking them!

[Missourian]

As for museums getting rid of specimens... Wow. I would hope they offer things to other institutions, let someone look them over first before actually chucking them!

I heard this museum dumped the stuff down the coal chute (it is/was in an old building). Some collector was able to salvage some of the material. Again, this is hearsay, but I wouldn't doubt the information.

[erose]

I heard this museum dumped the stuff down the coal chute (it is/was in an old building). Some collector was able to salvage some of the material. Again, this is hearsay, but I wouldn't doubt the information.

Fossils(and other collection items) have been tossed in the middle of the night before. Nothing new there. Museums find themselves in a tight spot when they want to give away something that was given to them in the first place. The original donor may be upset by the idea and may stop giving in the future. Same goes for selling off old collections. A few years back I was with a small non-collecting museum that still had a small collection of art and artifacts. I had to attempt to track down all the original owners and give them first right of refusal before moving forward. New York artists move around a great deal and it took months. Eventually we found homes for everything. One item included a very old human skeleton, possibly from an archeological site. We never figured out who it belonged to.

[LoneRanger]

To name a new species, the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature requires that the specimens be deposited with a publicly accessible museum or institution. You can donate pieces to a museum while living -- or retain ownership but give the pieces to the museum in your will. If you do the latter, I think you have to let the museum hold the pieces even though you're technically the owner until death.

Like MB says above, specimens donated or willed to a local museum could be loaned out to other institutions for study and publication. But from the discussion it sounds like some professionals aren't going to accept this option, and instead want the specimens for the museum they are connected to. Seems selfish but I guess that's the way it is.

[MarcoSr]

Like MB says above, specimens donated or willed to a local museum could be loaned out to other institutions for study and publication. But from the discussion it sounds like some professionals aren't going to accept this option, and instead want the specimens for the museum they are connected to. Seems selfish but I guess that's the way it is.

It is not that the paleontologist is selfish. Museum curators can use their influence with certain publishers to get papers published or get a paper moved up in the publishing queue. As a Paleontologist if you want your paper published or don't want to wait ten years you try to get material donated to your museum or one where the curator can help you with a publisher. With the shark/ray material that I wanted to donate and get described, even though the paleontologist is very renowned, it took a while for him to get papers published unless the material was donated to certain museums. One of his papers was in the publishing queue for over 10 years and the person who donated the specimens for the paper died before it was published. So as a collector who donates specimens, I sure would like them described by published papers in my lifetime. There are a few museums in Europe where the curators have a lot of influence with certain publishers, and donating to their museums, helps get the paper published. Obviously if you have a major discovery every publisher will want to publish your paper. If you are naming a few new shark and ray genus/species do you think the publishers are lining up to publish your paper?

Marco Sr.

[MarcoSr]

One other point. The following discussion is based upon what I have been told by multiple paleontologists.

To get a paper published in any of the peer reviewed journals, the described specimens have to be cataloged as part of the collection of a secure repository which requires donation. There is a list of US institutions accredited by the AAM which classify as secure repositories (see the below PDF). Basically secure repositories are supposed to curate the specimens forever. There are some exceptions but because of this secure repositories may not be interested in some donations because of the restrictions imposed on them in what they can and can not do with the specimens. A secure repository would not be dumping specimens down a coal chute. So before you donate you might verify if the institution is accredited.

list-of-accredited-museums.pdf

Marco Sr.

[PRK]

The answers on this thread are pretty diagnostic, we now live in a ME generation. Remember only YOU know the important info on that fossil you found, and you all would rather the info you can contribute to science should be lost for all time? Better to make it available to science, where it may be used in your lifetime ( maybe not), than loose it for eternity, just remember, "you can't take it with you".

Edited January 29, 2014 by PRK

[Wrangellian]

I heard this museum dumped the stuff down the coal chute (it is/was in an old building). Some collector was able to salvage some of the material. Again, this is hearsay, but I wouldn't doubt the information.

At least some of it was recovered, if it's a true story.

[Auspex]

Storrs Olson is effectively retired. If you don't hear from him, contact Alan Feduccia, UNC Chapel Hill.

[MarcoSr]

Storrs Olson is effectively retired. If you don't hear from him, contact Alan Feduccia, UNC Chapel Hill.

Chas

Thank you for the additional contact. Dr. Olson agreed to look at my bird bones the next time that he gets back to the Smithsonian. They will be there for him to look at.

Marco Sr.

[toolbox82]

WILLS POINT FORMATION - 14 UNKNOWN SPECIES OF MARINE INVERTEBRATE FOSSILS DISCOVERED

The University of Texas in Austin Non-Vertebrate lab has recently completed a study on 45 species of marine invertebrate fossils found here. Out of the 45 species 14 are listed as Unknown Species. The NPL publication of the 45 species can be found at the link below. The 45 species published represents a small sample of the total number of fossils in the growing collection. All the fossils found here are being donated to University of Texas and for scientific study at other centers of higher education.

http://www.gbif.org/occurrence/search?GEOMETRY=-97.039060+30.797368%2C-97.039060+30.790990%2C-97.032837+30.790990%2C-97.032837+30.797368%2C-97.039060+30.797368&DATASET_KEY=1f2cfb6f-c91b-498e-80f3-8eeeec688292

[Koss1959]

I have a Pliosaurid basicranium I found a year and a half ago or so. It is apparently from the late triassic/ early jurassic during which time there were an explosion of new plesisaurid and pliosaurid species. Apparently my basicranium is likely from one of these species. I sent it to one of UK's top Plesiosaur skull experts who has had it since I found it pretty much. He's done some light acid prep on it and found it to be similar to Thalassiodracon and Hauffiosaurus. I believe Hauffiosaurus is not known from this area, so that could be exciting. However, progress is unfortunately slow as he is a busy man. I was also told because it is an isolated bone, it is unlikely it'll be named if it is a new species. A shame, but understandable.

I'm torn when it comes to donating it. I think it's a high chance it'll sit in a draw and never see the light of day. But on the other hand, it's as useful as a brick sitting on my shelf. But I'll probably keep it unless someone shows a strong interest in it as it's my best fossil.

[Malcolmt]

There are a lot of undescribed species out there waiting to be found. I have an Ordovician crinoid found earlier this year that is a bit puzzling to all that have seen it. It is currently off being studied by people well above my pay grade (fossil wise) and may well be an undescribed species. I have heard that there are literally dozens of different Ordovician crinoids from Ontario here that are out there waiting for someone to determine if they are indeed unknown and needing to be described. Academia does not seem to move all that fast.

Kinda neat though to think you may have found something that no one else has come across.

[Koss1959]

Kinda neat though to think you may have found something that no one else has come across.

That counts for every fossil that you find anyway.

[Auspex]

I would think that the vast majority of species that have ever lived are yet to be described.

[Malcolmt]

I suspect you are correct Auspex but at least I can delude myself into some sense of grandeur.

[Auspex]

I suspect you are correct Auspex but at least I can delude myself into some sense of grandeur.

I also think that, from the known sites, the "low-hanging fruit" have largely been picked. Knowledge, hard work, and diligence (with a dash of good fortune) are required to add new names to the record, and every one is an accomplishment!