How Do We Convince People To Give Casts A Chance?

[-Andy-]

I understand why collectors seek genuine fossils over casts, but sometimes I really do wonder why some people have such a tremendous disdain for casts and replicas.

I had recently went to the local dinosaur museum exhibition with a group of colleagues, and one of them was rather startled once he learnt that the majority of fossils being displayed were casts. In his own words, he felt like "he was scammed".

In another case which irks me, I was teaching a group of children about various fossils. Most of the fossils I was using were real except for a few teeth which were casts. A 5-year old girl happened to be holding one of the casts, and asked me if it was real. When I explained it was a cast, she exclaimed in a most disgusted voice, "Ew! Fake!" and quite literally slammed it back down onto the table. (I was just as shocked at her lack of manners, as I was at her extreme reaction).

I am not asking for collectors to switch to buying casts, but how do we convince the general public that casts are very important, and that they are here to stay?

[Ludwigia]

Well, for one thing, they are used in a lot of museum exhibits instead of the original in order to protect the originals from damage, but I suppose you know that already. That's anyway a logical reason that can be told and should be easily accepted. I've donated a number of my finds to museums and received casts in exchange and I'm quite happy with them....they don't weigh so much

[Kosmoceras]

I think it goes down to the reasons why people collect fossils in the first place and what they want to achieve from collecting.

[fossilized6s]

I know for me, it's all about the hunt, being outdoors, prepping and honestly the conversations that my one-off pieces start. Im an explorer at heart, but when the World has been mapped there's not to many unexplored places to "discover". Fossils provide that sense of discovery for me. Casts are great for teaching purposes, but it's someone else's discovery. Not my cup-of-tea.

[mikeymig]

When I worked for a large science retailer I had many opportunities to purchase beautiful replicas for the company. The CEO would not allow me to carry any cast or replicas no matter what they cost or looked like. He wanted to be able to tell investors as well as the public that every fossil you see in our stores are real. Once you buy one replica you can no longer make that claim.

mikey

[Missourian]

It could be the only way to possess specimens that would otherwise be far too expensive, if not illegal. I would love to have the Berlin Archaeopteryx in my collection.... Hey, I can.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

One of my engineering buddies owns several laser scanners and 3D printers. He approached me to get my take on producing and marketing replica fossils. While I offered to let him scan my fossils and do what he wanted with them, I declined partnering with him on 2 counts. 1) It is cheaper to buy many medium to large fossils than to 3D print them as cost is proportional to size, and 2) Schools in my area might not have much incentive to buy any fossils, real or replica, since I annually donate hundreds of pounds of varied fossils each year.

People just prefer the real thing....ask your wife if she has a preference for diamonds over cubic zirconium...

[Auspex]

Real fossils are more than decor.

[RyanNREMTP]

For me it's the realization that what you are holding in your hands is millions of years old. It lived and died a long time ago but it still has a story to tell.

[GreatWhiteMac]

Agree 100%, nothing beats the real thing!

[Mike from North Queensland]

I like Ludwigia have donated fossils to museums and received casts in return. This is more so I can still have some attachment to the original with the knowledge that I found it. My preference for museums would be where casts are used for large animals it is clearly labelled "cast" and from how many specimens, but I would also like the original bone displayed beside so people would understand that most fossils of size are not found as portrayed as in complete specimens. This would give casts a better rap where they are appropriate as in teaching aids and to give the public a better understanding at what the entire animal or parts there of looked like.

Mike

[fossilcrazy]

This new thread reminds me of a song lyric "there's nothing like the real thing baby".

The public has be coddled to with glitzy and glamorized fossil items. Sometimes truly important fossils for Science, have no appeal to the public.

It would seem people would be OK with replicas if they knew up front what they are seeing or holding.

If you follow the true dynamics of supply and demand, it will explain and validate the usage of fossil casts and replicas.

I have an old message thread on the topic of casts-

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/23859-when-is-a-fossil-not-really-a-fossil/

[Auspex]

Collecting anything is the process of acquisition; satisfaction comes from being discerning in your choices, and pride from being knowledgeable enough to be able to do so.

[KansasFossilHunter]

Collecting anything is the process of acquisition; satisfaction comes from being discerning in your choices, and pride from being knowledgeable enough to be able to do so.

I'm going to have to use that quote sometime. Very well stated.

[Scylla]

I recently went to the AMNH and I must say no one complained that the flying pterosaurs were fake, no one complained that the giant blue whale hanging above the Hall of the Oceans was fake, But when it came to the fossils, it just seemed like cheating to see casts. Ironically many of the birds and mammals on display are real taxidermy specimens and this distressed some viewers. (why did they have to kill a Black Rhino!) So "fake" can be OK or even better than real if the expectations jibe with that. I would love to have a cast of a smilodon skull on display. If I could I would rather have the real thing. Humans are so weird.

[Paleoworld-101]

Casts are appropriate for exhibitions when the original is kept in another museum or otherwise too rare/not available but I am an advocate of the majority of what you see at a museum being real.

I don't mind seeing giant dinosaur skeleton casts as what you get from seeing them is more about the size/wow factor. But smaller fossils that are typically in glass cabinets alongside the giant replica skeletons should be real.

I mean, they sell plastic dino teeth and claws in the gift shops anyway. What we see behind the glass in the exhibit should be the real thing.

However where i do see a great benefit of using casts is where, like at the London Natural History Museum, they have the real thing behind glass and then directly in front of it a cast of that exact specimen that you can touch whilst seeing the real thing at the same time.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Paleoworld-101

[siteseer]

More people would have a better appreciation of a cast if they ever saw the process of cast-making or if they have ever done any fossil preparation. I think there is some confusion about terms too. A cast is an attempt at an exact life-size model of the original not just an artistic version approximately the size of the original. It takes a professional cast-maker to not only get the size and shape right but also the texture.

I doubt that the people who dislike like casts realize how heavy and unwieldy mineralized bones can be, especially those of large dinosaurs, mammals, or marine vertebrates. They can crack/break just from their own weight especially parts like the processes of a vertebra. It's difficult to display a large dinosaur skeleton with the actual bones because each one requires a structure that safely supports it while also allowing it to be visible from multiple angles. Displaying the actual bones takes them away from being available for study and the multiple measurements and comparisons that entails.

I have been to mineral/fossil shows where people have happily bought casts of dinosaur teeth. The casts were well-made and inexpensive ($8-20) allowing the average person to own something like a Tyrannosaurus tooth or Velociraptor claw without busting a budget, or as Missourian also noted, without worrying about interpretations of legality at the time of purchase or later.

I understand why collectors seek genuine fossils over casts, but sometimes I really do wonder why some people have such a tremendous disdain for casts and replicas.

I had recently went to the local dinosaur museum exhibition with a group of colleagues, and one of them was rather startled once he learnt that the majority of fossils being displayed were casts. In his own words, he felt like "he was scammed".

In another case which irks me, I was teaching a group of children about various fossils. Most of the fossils I was using were real except for a few teeth which were casts. A 5-year old girl happened to be holding one of the casts, and asked me if it was real. When I explained it was a cast, she exclaimed in a most disgusted voice, "Ew! Fake!" and quite literally slammed it back down onto the table. (I was just as shocked at her lack of manners, as I was at her extreme reaction).

I am not asking for collectors to switch to buying casts, but how do we convince the general public that casts are very important, and that they are here to stay?

[Auspex]

I have four cast reproductions. One was bought as a decorative backdrop for a display case: the Berlin Archaeopteryx. Another is a reconstruction of a 3-D Archiopteryx skull (technically not a reproduction, as no original exists). The third is the skull of Hesperornis, and will be used in a panel mount I will composite from four different partial skeletons (this will take a while...). Finally (so far), I bought a copy of a pedal phalynx from Titanis walleri that was a 'banquet favor' at the AOU Annual Dinner in 1963; I treasure it more as an historical object, as it was given to attendees by Pierce Brodkorb himself. These are the uses in my collection for reproductions.

[Boesse]

As someone able to produce high-quality casts and appreciating the time and effort it takes to make them, I get pretty tired of whining about "ooh, it's not the real thing". From my perspective, it's extraordinarily frustrating when I visit an institution and am unable to study, measure, or photograph a fossil because it's on display. Some museums will tell you to show up at 6am, others will let you open up the case during exhibit hours, and others yet will let nobody even open the case up - I've heard this is true for the AMNH. Most of the fossil specimens at the AMNH, by the way, are real.

Putting a cast up for display is preferable in my opinion because the danger of damaging a fossil during installation or an earthquake is very, very real. Furthermore, the primary purpose of depositing specimens into museum collections is for preservation and future study; yes, it is great if a fossil can be displayed for the public to see, but not if it restricts or retards scientific study.

The other great thing about casts is that you can make more than one of them - so you can send them to other institutions. Here in NZ, we're *(&^ out of luck if we want to visit a ton of other museum collections, because it costs so much $$ to go overseas; if we are missing a critical photograph from a particular angle, too bad. Your funding is up. But, we've been able to acquire casts of all sorts of important fossil cetaceans - Zygorhiza, Mammalodon, Aetiocetus, Janjucetus, Simocetus, Squalodelphis, Prosqualodon, Joumocetus, Piscobalaena, and others - which we can use to compare with the NZ fossil material we're working on.

A cast is also a great thing to give in reward/exchange for the original specimen being donated. I've done this on numerous occasions for relatively small specimens that I can mold in latex.

[-Andy-]

Helpful replies everyone.

As for myself, one of the reason why I get casts is because I simply cannot afford the real thing. I've got a lovely 1/1 sized Velociraptor skull and claw since I know I can't afford either of the real deals.

Besides, I feel much more secure when I see kids get their rowdy hands all over my casts, while as I almost get a heart attack seeing the way kids handle my real fossils.

[caldigger]

From the lyrics of John Lennon (if he were into fossils) " All we are saying...is give casts a chance".

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

Edited April 28, 2014 by caldigger

[Wrangellian]

I'll concur with most of the other comments: I can see the educational use of casts, so as not to let kids handle the real thing and to keep the real thing stored properly in the museum - and receiving a cast of something that you've donated is nice. But I don't see the point it buying a cast of something that you could buy a real example of for just a little more money - eg. most inverts. I love the look and feel and smell of real rock - not so much of casts. I have a replica of a Silica Fm Ohio Phacops trilo that I acquired at the Tyrrell museum years ago (parents paid for it - I was a kid. I would not buy one now.) I consider it a paperweight, not a cherished specimen for my specimen cabinet! I'd rather save that cabinet space for incoming real stuff! I may not be able to afford a comparable real Phacops right now but it's not outside the realm of possibility. Inverts are so numerous/diverse that 'holes in the collection' are quite tolerable, and are always close to being filled with something.

[RichW9090]

Over the last 10 or 12 years, I have cast every snarge fossil I get my hands on. Every specimen that I've borrowed from museum collections has been molded and cast - with the museum's permission, of course. Once the originals are returned to the museums, I have a wonderful comparative collections that I use every day.

If you're in it for the money, you won't want casts, of course. If you're in it for the science, and you find an important specimen, having a cast to show is, to me, every bit as good as having the fossil you have donated.

My ability to get the molds made is now gone, so I can't get casts as easily as I used to.

Rich

[tooth_claw]

I feel that if the whole 'cast on display' thing is explained clearly (rare, fragile, study, heavy, etc.) then people are willing to let it slide. It is easy to forget how little experience the public has with fossils and how they percieve them based on other media.

I regularly present fossil talks to kids and they always ask if the fossils are real. I tell them that they are casts/replicas and explain why (also that I would not let them touch the real ones and that they would have to go to the museum to see them otherwise) and how I made them. They then become interested in the process and accept the reasons without question.

Transparency of information is key here- never try to pass off a cast (or sculpt!) as genuine- even passively or by lack of information.

A replica is not a fake- it is paying homage to the original. A fake is produced to decieve the audience.

[NZ_Fossil_Collecta]

i agree that the real thing definitely means something much more but don't agree with the extremely anti-replica reactions you describe andy. and i totally understand how museums mostly carry replicas for the big n' rare stuff.