KYAL Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 The New Mexico material is Garita Creek Fm., Triassic, Quay Co. and the Oklahoma material is Wellington Garbar Complex, Lower Permian, Waurika. I just got through sorting through the material and wanted to try photography with my digital microscope. I intend to eventually sort these out and take individual close ups with scale indicated. For the most part these are "particles of sand" in size. If anything stands out with obvious identity in these pictures please let me know. Once I have the individual photos I intend to try IDs myself with what literature I have. Then I will repost and hopefully get confirmation and help from forum members. Thank you for looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckmerlin Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Hi KYAL very nice looks like you have some nice fish teeth and some shark teeth (bottom row first picture) also it looks like you have a head spine/fin spine (bottom row middle picture) sorry I cant ID the sharks teeth but there are others on here who will be able to help you with ids for those , the fish teeth are from ray finned fish Actinopterygii I use a usb microscope to look at some of my fish material from the Westphalian -A Pennine lower coal measures of the carboniferous, its very rewarding and great fun cant wait to see posts of some of these under your microscope have fun best regards Chris Edited May 8, 2014 by ckmerlin "A man who stares at a rock must have a lot on his mind... or nothing at all' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old bones Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Nice stuff in that matrix The one thing I see that I recognize, is the sting ray barb in the middle, pic second row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) The tooth in the middle is an amphibian Trimerorhachis insignis. The middle specimen is an Orthocanthus spine. I would need to see individual pictures to id additional Permian specimens. Marco Sr. Edited May 8, 2014 by MarcoSr 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old bones Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Wow, Marco Sr, I didn't even know something like that existed! That is way more exciting than what I thought it was. I think I'll just sit back and watch now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Wow, Marco Sr, I didn't even know something like that existed! That is way more exciting than what I thought it was. I think I'll just sit back and watch now. Julianna I've looked through a lot of Permian matrix from Waurika. Lots of fish, reptile, amphibian and freshwater shark fossils in it. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckmerlin Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 The tooth in the middle is an amphibian Trimerorhachis insignis. post-14890-0-44125700-1399567006.jpg The middle specimen is an Orthocanthus spine. post-14890-0-27967600-1399567005.jpg I would need to see individual pictures to id additional Permian specimens. Marco Sr. Great call on the amphibian tooth Marco Sr ( I should have been a bit more careful with research , Ill also have to go through my fossil teeth again ) "A man who stares at a rock must have a lot on his mind... or nothing at all' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 The tooth in the middle is an amphibian Trimerorhachis insignis. Marco I'm guessing you got this identification from the rhyniechert.com website. I agree that it looks exactly like their specimens. I don't think they identified these properly. These teeth clearly have an acrodin tip that is characteristic of ray-finned fish. I tried to find a picture of a Trimerorhachis tooth from a peer reviewed journal but came up empty handed. Maybe someone else can give it a try so we can see what they look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) Marco I'm guessing you got this identification from the rhyniechert.com website. I agree that it looks exactly like their specimens. I don't think they identified these properly. These teeth clearly have an acrodin tip that is characteristic of ray-finned fish. I tried to find a picture of a Trimerorhachis tooth from a peer reviewed journal but came up empty handed. Maybe someone else can give it a try so we can see what they look like. I actually have several thousand of the teeth from matrix from Waurika. I used Kieran Davis' book "Lower Permian Vertebrates of Oklahoma Volume 1 - Waurika" and other material found in web searches for the id Kieran has spent a lot of years like myself searching matrix from Waurika but has identified these teeth through teeth found in skull and jaw specimens. Complete skeletons, skulls, etc. of Trimerorhachis are pretty abundant in the fossil record although not at Waurika where the specimens are completely disarticulated and found scattered across the site. So unless Kieran and others are wrong the tooth is from the amphibian Trimerorhachis. However I am open to other evidence. Marco Sr. Edited May 9, 2014 by MarcoSr "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) I actually have several thousand of the teeth from matrix from Waurika. I used Kieran Davis' book "Lower Permian Vertebrates of Oklahoma Volume 1 - Waurika" and other material found in web searches for the id Kieran has spent a lot of years like myself searching matrix from Waurika but has identified these teeth through teeth found in skull and jaw specimens. Complete skeletons, skulls, etc. of Trimerorhachis are pretty abundant in the fossil record although not at Waurika where the specimens are completely disarticulated and found scattered across the site. So unless Kieran and others are wrong the tooth is from the amphibian Trimerorhachis. However I am open to other evidence. Marco Sr. Do you have a specimen with the clear tip that is broken in half? A quick look at the inside will tell if it is Trimerorhachis. Trimerorhachis is a Labyrinthodont and should have the typical infolding that gave this group its name. Edited May 9, 2014 by Al Dente Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) Do you have a specimen with the clear tip that is broken in half? A quick look at the inside will tell if it is Trimerorhachis. Trimerorhachis is a Labyrinthodont and should have the typical infolding that gave this group its name. labyrinthodont.jpg I just looked through several thousand specimens. Surprisingly almost all were intact. This is a typical specimen. They tend to break at the clear tip. These are some specimens shooting down on the top of a tooth with a broken tip. Or they tend to break at the base. These are some specimens shooting up from the base of the tooth. I'm not seeing that pattern but there is a lot of debris stuck to these specimens and you may need a thin cut under much higher magnification to be able to see the pattern. Marco Sr. Edited May 9, 2014 by MarcoSr "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Marco Thanks for the pictures. I found the publication "Description of a Collection of Associated Skeletons of Trimerorhachis" 1935 by E.C Case. It did mention there is enamel at the point of the tooth but there is not a picture showing if this is a feature similar to an acrodin cap. There are pictures of the cross section and of a jaw with teeth. I did read on the Rhyniechert website where no skulls have been found in the Waurika Formation. Here are the cross sections of the teeth from the Case paper that show the infolding: and a jaw: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Marco Thanks for the pictures. I found the publication "Description of a Collection of Associated Skeletons of Trimerorhachis" 1935 by E.C Case. It did mention there is enamel at the point of the tooth but there is not a picture showing if this is a feature similar to an acrodin cap. There are pictures of the cross section and of a jaw with teeth. I did read on the Rhyniechert website where no skulls have been found in the Waurika Formation. Here are the cross sections of the teeth from the Case paper that show the infolding: Trimerorhachis tooth section.JPG and a jaw: trimerorhachis jaw.JPG The images shown from Case are polished sections. If you have the ability to cut and polish a specimen I can send you some to experiment with. PM me if you want to try this. Kieran Davis talks about thousands of Trimerorhachis teeth from Waurika but doesn't mention a skull in his book from Waurika. His illustrated Trimerorhachis teeth match the one from this post and the many that I have. I really would like to know for sure because I've seen a lot of different fish specimens with the acrodin tips. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYAL Posted May 9, 2014 Author Share Posted May 9, 2014 I sure hope the tooth is actually from Trimerorhachis. I have Kieran Davis's book too and I just assumed the ID was correct. I notice also no one is weighing in on any of the Garita Creek material. Hope someone has some experience with that. Presumably some of the teeth may be from dinosaurs. Having been trained in amphibian and reptile physiology I tend to favor those classes! KYAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 When I first saw the photo of the tooth I was 99% sure it was from a ray-finned fish but I'm not as confident now after reading the Case paper when he specifically mentions an enamel tipped tooth. One of Marco's pictures has similarities with one of the polished teeth in Case's paper. I don't see the infolding but sanding and polishing might bring it out if it is there. Here's a side by side. I think it would be fun to try to cut and polish one of these teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 They are amphibian teeth after all: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/46676-early-amphibian-tooth-cross-section/?p=504517 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zébulon Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Hi everyone, I am new so I hope I don't do anything wrong writing a message here months after the last post ! I am currently working on isolated fish teeth and found some that are very similar to the one illustrated by KYAL and identified by MarcoSr as Trimerorhachis insignis. I was sure they were fish teeth because of the acrodine cap but I found this topic by chance and it opens my perspectives. I have now two questions : - Do you have some more references with illustration of amphibian teeth ? I saw the reference of Kieran Davis' book but I need a scientific paper of a review with detailed description. So far I could not find description and illustration of teeth, only other parts of the skeleton. - My material is from the Late Jurassic (Kimmeridgian) of Europe, do you know any younger amphibians with a dentition similar to the one of Trimerorhachis insignis ? It is always hard to find answers when you don't know what you are looking for. I am trained in Late Jurassic chondrichthyans, just started to deal with bony fish and have no experience in tetrapods yet, so any help is welcome ! Thanks in advance, Zébulon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Hi everyone, I am new so I hope I don't do anything wrong writing a message here months after the last post ! I am currently working on isolated fish teeth and found some that are very similar to the one illustrated by KYAL and identified by MarcoSr as Trimerorhachis insignis. I was sure they were fish teeth because of the acrodine cap but I found this topic by chance and it opens my perspectives. I have now two questions : - Do you have some more references with illustration of amphibian teeth ? I saw the reference of Kieran Davis' book but I need a scientific paper of a review with detailed description. So far I could not find description and illustration of teeth, only other parts of the skeleton. - My material is from the Late Jurassic (Kimmeridgian) of Europe, do you know any younger amphibians with a dentition similar to the one of Trimerorhachis insignis ? It is always hard to find answers when you don't know what you are looking for. I am trained in Late Jurassic chondrichthyans, just started to deal with bony fish and have no experience in tetrapods yet, so any help is welcome ! Thanks in advance, Zébulon It is fine to respond to an old post. Lots of folks do it. However, you might have a better chance of getting your answers if you start a new post in the "Questions & Answers" Forum. Most folks look at the title of a post before they open it. The title of this post probably won't bring in the folks with the answers that you are looking for. My main interest is sharks and rays so the faunas I study very seldom have any amphibian material so I really can't answer your questions. However you might also do a search in the "Documents" Forum. There are lots of links to great on-line PDFs. As an example check out this link in the Documents Forum for Amphibians. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/2980-fruitbats-pdf-library-class-amphibia-salamanders-frogs-and-their-relatives/?hl=amphibians Marco Sr. 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zébulon Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Hey, Thank you for the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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