Shellseeker Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I went hunting with Miatria today. It was windy and cold (for SW Florida). I was foolish not to bring a wetsuit. We all did pretty well, my best find a small perfect Meg until this one showed up. I have a couple of guesses bit will leave it to TFF experts. Note the scrape mark from rubbing against the opposing canine. Then in the next sieve, a jaw segment with 2 and a half tooth sockets. This one confused me because the narrowness of the jaw and the large size of the sockets. Is this really Alligator? These tooth sockets would more than fit the large canine pictured above. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 They look to me, with my old eyes and your dark images, like jaguar and something other than gator. The bone doesn't appear to me to be at all gator-like. Maybe better images would help. I'm going to look for a good illustration of a megalonychid jaw, but that's just part of the process of elimination. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbshark Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 To me Jack that doesn't look like Gator jaw. They are very distinctive with "potholes" and a trailing dip away from them on the outside edge. Congrats on the carnivore and while I'm no expert it looks similar to some of the Bear teeth I've seen pics of. Every once in a great while it's not just a big rock down there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Eliminate giant ground sloth for the jaw. I am stumped. Post an image of the other broken end so that we can see details of the alveolus. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessees Pride Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Whooaa...big boy! Congratulations on that! --- Joshua tennesseespride@gmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Awesome finds Jack! The jaw section looks almost whale like judging from the evenly spaced sockets, similar sized sockets and all around circular shape of the sockets. But it's just a hypothesis. The canine is the size of a bear, jag or whale. Is it hollow and is it worn or broke on the tip? ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Eliminate giant ground sloth for the jaw. I am stumped. Post an image of the other broken end so that we can see details of the alveolus. I will defer additional pics of the canine until tomorrow. Here are some photos of the Jaw. fossilized6s Posted Today, 10:34 PM Awesome finds Jack!The jaw section looks almost whale like judging from the evenly spaced sockets, similar sized sockets and all around circular shape of the sockets. But it's just a hypothesis. The canine is the size of a bear, jag or whale. Is it hollow and is it worn or broke on the tip? It is not hollow, it has longitudinal rather than latitudinal lines (like whale). It seems to have a worn area on the side of the tip from scraping against another opposing tooth. The Tip seems to be slightly worn by use, but also broken during or after fossilization. I will get a better photo of the end of the tip in the morning. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) The jaw must be whale . . . Scaldicetus sp. I've seen the teeth, usually without the cementum wrap, but I've never found any jaw. See pp. 339 of Hulbert's book. Congrats! Edited May 17, 2014 by Harry Pristis http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lissa318 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Great finds!!! Congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 It is unusual when a jaw segment gets the nod over a large canine, but in this case well deserved!!! I have found an occasional whale tooth, but this is the first whale jaw segment found by me or hunting companions in the last 5 years. I realized that we were in the Miocene mix segment of the Peace River because we were also finding 3-toed horse teeth. Thanks for the IDs. A couple of more photos on the canine. In differentiating between Jaguar and Bear: Even though Jaguar and Bear canines are about the same length, the short tip, the more robust (diameter) root would imply Jaguar. Note in last photo the tip is (slightly) worn but broken on lower right. I was not expecting these fantastic finds when Miatria insisted we visit this spot. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miatria Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I aim to please! ;-) Psyched about that jaw segment. I will add pics of the vert I found but I'm stuck on the coast opposite my fossils and camera until Monday. Zookeeperfossils.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miatria Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Here's the vert I found right next to Shellseeker. Zookeeperfossils.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilized6s Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I believe that to be a Manatee vert! Have you concluded Jaguar on your tooth Jack? If it is, that's classifies as a lifetime find in my book! I should be coming down in January, let's go! ~Charlie~ "There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK ->Get your Mosasaur print ->How to spot a fake Trilobite ->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 I believe that to be a Manatee vert! Have you concluded Jaguar on your tooth Jack? If it is, that's classifies as a lifetime find in my book! I should be coming down in January, let's go! I agree that IF Jaguar, that classifies as a lifetime find --- I know many fossil hunters who have not found a Jaguar canine! I am pleased whichever mammal it represents. I have insufficient expertise to ID it wit certainty myself and I have multiple persons with fossil knowledge identifying it as either Bear or Jaguar. However, I have learned to depend on Harry's expertise and so, I am classify this one as Jaguar, but without absolute certainty. January!!! -- seems like an epoch away.. I am so focused on the last couple of months of the 2013-2014 season that future time is almost standing still. I will be glad to show you some locations where you can test your luck... SS The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 For a possibly more definitive answer I'd suggest emailing Dr. Hulbert and sending him some images. The man is a walking encyclopedia for Florida's vertebrate fossils. Though river worn, he should be able to give you an opinion on the canine. For a trip-maker like that it would be nice to be able to get a positive ID on it. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 It's a jaguar canine. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted May 22, 2014 Author Share Posted May 22, 2014 It's a jaguar canine. Thanks Harry, If you are sure, I am sure. Nothing like having comparative examples of all likely candidates in your collection. I can see the differences. SS The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Jack, both are pretty neat! The Jag has a slight edge in the oh wow factor category! Congrats. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbshark Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Congrats Jack , what an awesome find! And thanks Harry for getting a firm ID on it! Every once in a great while it's not just a big rock down there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miatria Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Jaguar! Awesome! We went back to this same small area and I found this piece of jaw which Shellseeker quickly identified as ground sloth. I found a photo of a jaw with teeth that seem to match the sockets in my jaw fragment. Tough place to dig but great rewards! Zookeeperfossils.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Jaguar! Awesome! We went back to this same small area and I found this piece of jaw which Shellseeker quickly identified as ground sloth. I found a photo of a jaw with teeth that seem to match the sockets in my jaw fragment. Tough place to dig but great rewards! There are some very unique fossils coming from this spot. Thanks for posting. I did say that the only mammal that has a tooth that could fit that socket was sloth -- I hope that other TFF experts will analyze and confirm or deny this jaw segment from paramylodon harlani. I have found sloth teeth and claw cores, but never a mandible out of the Peace River -- Outstanding find!!! The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 The jaw certainly looks to me like Paramylodon (Glossotherium) harlani. Paramylodon seems to be preferred since 1995 when H.G. McDonald published his analysis of the sloths from Leisey Shell Pit. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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