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Suggestions For Breaking Down Some Matrix Please!?


fossilized6s

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I'm try to break down some hard micro matrix from the ATCO formation in TX. Its a rock solid clay, almost sandstone. Now there are some very tiny micros in this stuff and i don't want to cause any abrasion to them by just throwing them in a hydrogen peroxide solution.

Do you guys suggest Muratic acid? Vinegar and baking soda? Or Hydrogen Peroxide?

And what are some ratios you tend to work with? And how long do you soak them?

Any and all help is appreciated by this micro noob!

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~Charlie~

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK
->Get your Mosasaur print
->How to spot a fake Trilobite
->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG

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I found that the amount of muratic acid required to effectively breakdown sandstone will destroy all of the fossils also.

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If it is clay you could try completely dessicating by drying it in an oven then adding water. It works for some clay matrices.

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It did come with clay matrix. I broke all of that down no problem. This other stuff is rock solid unfortunately....

~Charlie~

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK
->Get your Mosasaur print
->How to spot a fake Trilobite
->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG

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You might try alternately boiling and freezing it. I haven't tried that on anything yet myself, but I've seen it recommended. Or try drying it (at low heat, around 150o) then soaking it in hydrogen peroxide. That's what I've been using on crumbly shale, although you need a stronger peroxide than I have (3%) for hard shale. I've seen recommendations for 10-12% peroxide, which is available as hair bleach.

I wouldn't recommend using acids (either muriatic or vinegar) unless the matrix is limestone. It may be worth a try: put a chunk in vinegar and see if it effervesces. If it does, good! That means the rock will dissolve. If it doesn't, then it's not limestone, and an acid bath won't help.

Good luck!

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Never use any of the stronger acids like muriatic. They are dangerous to use in a non lab environment and will destroy your fossils like john says. If you want to try acid use low concentration acetic or formic acid. Regular vinegar is 5% acetic and pickling vinegar is 10% acetic. If you have a lot of matrix in the vinegar the teeth should be fine as the vinegar dilutes quickly working on the matrix. If you put just teeth in even 5% vinegar the acetic acid can attack the enamel of the teeth and discolor and pit them. H2O2 normally doesn't bother teeth at the 3% concentration. However I did have one matrix that because of other natural chemicals in the matrix the H2O2 turned all the enamel blue. I have seen that ATCO conglomerate before. Unfortunately for me the breakdowns that I usually do at home didn't work that well. You can try a piece in a small container with vinegar. Another in a small container of H2O2. If you see bubbles you are getting some breakdown. However, bubbles doesn't mean that it will breakdown so it can be searched or that it will be an easy process. I wound up with my ATCO conglomerate going with freezing and then pouring boiling vinegar on the matrix and letting sit for a day or two. It took a lot of these cycles to get decent residue from each breakdown cycle and in the end I gave up before complete breakdown. Remove the residue after each cycle so you don't damage any teeth that are in the residue. Some people soak matrix in vinegar for months to break the matrix down, changing the vinegar or adding new vinegar at regular intervals. Unfortunately every matrix is different. There can be a lot of trial and error until you find what works. Generally drying/hot water works on sands and clays. Detergents, kerosene and H2O2 can work on some tough clays. Low concentrations of acetic and formic acid can work on sandstone, mudstone, limestone etc. Soft shale can be broken down in hot water or 3% H2O2 or hair bleach sometimes. Sometimes freezing/ boiling helps with shale. Not much of what you can do at home works with the really hard tough shale or conglomerates. You need to be very safety conscience and have lots of patience, Don't even try 30% H2O2 or other chemicals that are used in labs as they can be extremely dangerous to use at home without the proper safety equipment and procedures.

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

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Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. I appreciate it.

I'm soaking a half dollar sized chunk in pickling vinegar now. I'll try soaking about the same size chunk in H202 tonight. But I'm thinking i may just have to freeze/boil this stuff.

The real shame is that it is very fossil rich. I need to break this down one way or another. Who knows i may find some new techniques in the process.

~Charlie~

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK
->Get your Mosasaur print
->How to spot a fake Trilobite
->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG

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~Charlie~

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK
->Get your Mosasaur print
->How to spot a fake Trilobite
->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG

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So the Hydrogen Peroxide bath didn't do anything. It's been 48hrs and it just broke down the loose clay bits.

Im going to freeze a few, then dump them in boiling pickling vinegar and see what happens.

~Charlie~

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK
->Get your Mosasaur print
->How to spot a fake Trilobite
->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG

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So the Hydrogen Peroxide bath didn't do anything. It's been 48hrs and it just broke down the loose clay bits.

Im going to freeze a few, then dump them in boiling pickling vinegar and see what happens.

H2O2 didn't do anything on my ATCO conglomerate either. I got my ATCO matrix from Andre on e-bay. Where did you get yours?

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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H2O2 didn't do anything on my ATCO conglomerate either. I got my ATCO matrix from Andre on e-bay. Where did you get yours?

Marco Sr.

Yes sir, same guy. Lonestar-fossils

~Charlie~

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK
->Get your Mosasaur print
->How to spot a fake Trilobite
->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG

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Have you tried the pressure cooker idea yet with your samples?

Seen here: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/44042-pressure-cooker-used-for-matrix-break-down/

~Charlie~

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK
->Get your Mosasaur print
->How to spot a fake Trilobite
->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG

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Have you tried the pressure cooker idea yet with your samples?

Seen here: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/44042-pressure-cooker-used-for-matrix-break-down/

Charlie

No, I didn't try. First my wife said absolutely no to using her pressure cooker. Plus I'm not convinced on the danger aspect. Some folks have used microwaves for years to dry matrix without a problem. Yet I have read about some really tragic accidents with microwaves. All matrixes are different. So a pressure cooker or microwave may work well until you put the wrong matrix in one.

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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I asked Andre how he broke this stuff down, and he said he just sticks it outside and lets mother nature do its thing. Sounds very long!! I'll let you guys know if i have any success with anything.

~Charlie~

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why.....i dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" ~RFK
->Get your Mosasaur print
->How to spot a fake Trilobite
->How to identify a CONCRETION from a DINOSAUR EGG

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