-Andy- Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) My turn to post a Mosasaur jaw confirmation request. I am looking to purchase this mosasaur jaw, and I would like your input. Do you think this is 1) Genuine, with small amounts of restoration / composition 2) Large amounts of restoration / composition, but otherwise real 3) Too many red flags, not worth considering Thank you! EDIT: Seller has told me that there are at least two main jaw pieces here, and that some teeth are composited. Now my concern is on whether there are pieces of plaster disguised as jaw. EDIT2: Despite the enticing price tag of 699 USD. I will be passing on this. I must thank everyone here for their help and input. You've saved me a great deal of regret and money. Edited June 4, 2014 by -Andy- Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 Three more pictures. Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 The 'matrix' looks artificial... Somewhere between 2 ans 3, IMHO. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taogan Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I agree about the matrix, but am wondering why. Maybe the damage is greater than it appears and the matrix was replaced to cover this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I'd say closer to 3. The teeth are too many different colors and the sizing is inconsistent. Looks like teeth from at least 2-3 different individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietfocus Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 A question for my own education: One thing I notice is that the 3 middle teeth, #'s 3, 4, and 5 from the back, look to be in much better condition but also they do not have the exposed root that the others have. They instead have matrix all around where they join to the jaw. Is this a reason to suspect that they are not original to the jaw? -Clayton "We are like butterflies who flutter for a day and think it is forever" - Carl Segan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painshill Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I would also suggest closer to '3'. Some of the jaw fractures look good... generally those where the broken sections are close together... but where the separation is a little wider, the match-up looks terrible in my opinion. Roger I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew);Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who [Rudyard Kipling] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 With Moroccan material unless its a clear winner its not worth the risk. Its good you asked and had a place to go for unbiased responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 Thank you everyone. I am not ready to dismiss this guy yet for two reasons. 1) Two members whom I respect as mosasaur experts have pm-ed me to tell me this jaw is good. 2) Initially I had felt that some parts of it looks so out-of-place because there are in fact two pieces of jaw here. The seller did just message me to tell me there are two pieces of jaw in the photo. With Moroccan material unless its a clear winner its not worth the risk. Its good you asked and had a place to go for unbiased responses. Usually clear winners also come with a premium price tag. I really am hoping that this jaw is at least a "2". Shall wait for the seller to reply to me on which parts were from the 2nd jaw, which may help explain why it looks the way it does. Teeth composition is fine with me. Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Seller has told me that there are at least two main jaw pieces here, and that some teeth are composited. Now my concern is on whether there are pieces of plaster disguised as bone and jaw. Does it look as if there is plaster to you guys? Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 It was 'manufactured' for 'sale' by admission of the seller - to me, that signals red flags. If you don't mind paying for something composited together from various pieces, then buy it. You could probably do a better job for a cheaper price if you put your own together from pieces bought separately. It just bothers me when items like this are sold as if they were found as presented. Of course, assessing from photos has its own problems...a point which is not lost on some sellers. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 It was 'manufactured' for 'sale' by admission of the seller - to me, that signals red flags. If you don't mind paying for something composited together from various pieces, then buy it. You could probably do a better job for a cheaper price if you put your own together from pieces bought separately. It just bothers me when items like this are sold as if they were found as presented. Of course, assessing from photos has its own problems...a point which is not lost on some sellers. I agree. I am not thrilled at the seller withholding the fact it was composited. I mean, composited teeth is fine with me, I have glued teeth to my fossil jaws before to make them look more complete. But that is something I am transparent to others about. A dishonest dealer doesn't necessarily mean his stuff are always bad. I have seen spectacular and genuine stuff come from shops that carry many dubious stuff. Many times, they are just ignorant. Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 It is up to you, when all is said and done, but speaking for myself (with my own collecting goals), I would hold out for genuine. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnoun11 Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) My turn to post a Mosasaur jaw confirmation request. I am looking to purchase this mosasaur jaw, and I would like your input. Do you think this is 1) Genuine, with small amounts of restoration / composition 2) Large amounts of restoration / composition, but otherwise real 3) Too many red flags, not worth considering Thank you! EDIT: Seller has told me that there are at least two main jaw pieces here, and that some teeth are composited. Now my concern is on whether there are pieces of plaster disguised as jaw. hi the maxillary is prognathodon,original bones with some restorations, look composed with many pieces of bones from mosasaurs , at list the bone ares real mosasaurs bones, all the teeth belong to the specie prognathodon but they are from differents specimens and one tooth is probably prognathodon curii,not in a good positions...the matrix look not natural for the maestrichian. it s come from sidi daoui area near oued zem. its to me preferable to buy a better specimen even price up, instead to buy a ship one and have regrets... in phosphate material, never dream about the part hide in supposed matrix. what you see is what you get...this piece is allready worked from the other side, so it s probably the best side here... if one specimen is a great one, it will be sold the same day in morocco or keeped by the dealer for sold it in tucson or in france...but i m not a expert. regards jnoun Edited June 3, 2014 by jnoun11 3 The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I would not buy that. It looks like a puzzled-together mess from the standpoint of someone who helped prep a mosasaur skull from Morocco a couple of months ago. Jnoun11 is being very modest. He knows a lot about mosasaurs and what they look like in the ground and right out of the ground. If you're going to follow one member's advice out of all of us, follow his. My turn to post a Mosasaur jaw confirmation request. I am looking to purchase this mosasaur jaw, and I would like your input. Do you think this is 1) Genuine, with small amounts of restoration / composition 2) Large amounts of restoration / composition, but otherwise real 3) Too many red flags, not worth considering Thank you! EDIT: Seller has told me that there are at least two main jaw pieces here, and that some teeth are composited. Now my concern is on whether there are pieces of plaster disguised as jaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokiehunter Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) Not an expert but I do own a Moroccan Mosasaur jaw section that is not a composite and is still in matrix. See attached for reference. I got this for a very reasonable price by being patient and shopping around a bit. My advice would be to try and find something less "exploded" and more difficult to fake and then be willing to pay a small premium to go thru a reputable dealer. Edited June 3, 2014 by hokiehunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnoun11 Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Not an expert but I do own a Moroccan Mosasaur jaw section that is not a composite and is still in matrix. See attached for reference. I got this for a very reasonable price by being patient and shopping around a bit. My advice would be to try and find something less "exploded" and more difficult to fake and then be willing to pay a small premium to go thru a reputable dealer. hi hokiehunter your specimen is composed by true bone of mosasaurs, but the teeth are from different s specimens, take a look around the teeth you will see the re-inclusion, because the matrix is differents in composition than the original matrix, or you can used a little bit of water for clean the base of each teeth and you will feel the differences with the original matrix. regards jnoun The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokiehunter Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 hi hokiehunter your specimen is composed by true bone of mosasaurs, but the teeth are from different s specimens, take a look around the teeth you will see the re-inclusion, because the matrix is differents in composition than the original matrix, or you can used a little bit of water for clean the base of each teeth and you will feel the differences with the original matrix. regards jnoun Hi jnoun, Very interesting. The piece is actually in storage right now so I can't test it but if you are correct a VERY reputable dealer has some serious explaining to do to me. Not going to call him out until I can verity what you say but I know for a fact he has a couple of similar pieces up for sale right now that he is listing as not composites. I had been saving this to try to prep out myself one day so will be very disappointed to not have that opportunity. Thanks for the tips. Also, do you have any pictures of what an "authentic piece" should look like? Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 (edited) Thank you everyone. You guys are right. There's no reason for me to post about a fossil if I wasn't going to take your advice. I shall hold out for now, and check with some fossil dealers if they have any decent and genuine mosasaur jaw to sell. hi the maxillary is prognathodon,original bones with some restorations, look composed with many pieces of bones from mosasaurs , at list the bone ares real mosasaurs bones, all the teeth belong to the specie prognathodon but they are from differents specimens and one tooth is probably prognathodon curii,not in a good positions...the matrix look not natural for the maestrichian. it s come from sidi daoui area near oued zem. its to me preferable to buy a better specimen even price up, instead to buy a ship one and have regrets... in phosphate material, never dream about the part hide in supposed matrix. what you see is what you get...this piece is allready worked from the other side, so it s probably the best side here... if one specimen is a great one, it will be sold the same day in morocco or keeped by the dealer for sold it in tucson or in france...but i m not a expert. regards jnoun Thank you. You are too modest. I consider you the foremost expert on mosasaurs in this forum. (and I am sure there are many other members who would agree so) Edited June 4, 2014 by -Andy- Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattalic Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Hi jnoun, Very interesting. The piece is actually in storage right now so I can't test it but if you are correct a VERY reputable dealer has some serious explaining to do to me. Not going to call him out until I can verity what you say but I know for a fact he has a couple of similar pieces up for sale right now that he is listing as not composites. I had been saving this to try to prep out myself one day so will be very disappointed to not have that opportunity. Thanks for the tips. Also, do you have any pictures of what an "authentic piece" should look like? Jason I know this post is a month+ old, but I too would be interested in seeing something authentic in regards to Mosasaurs - and maybe an authentic one from Morocco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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