Northern Sharks

Finally

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Hey Harry,

About the Cretalamna V. Cretolamna spelling -

Apparently when Glikman (1958) named the genus, he intended to spell it Cretolamna. But in his paper, when he first introduced the name in the systematic paleontology section, he mispelled it as "cretalamna". So, it appears that Cretalamna is now being recognized as the actual name, since it has precedent. Recent publications such as Shimada (2007; JVP 27:3) use the now correct name Cretalamna. There was a posting on Elasmo.com a while back about this (last summer?), which a scan of Glickman's typo.

Bobby

Thanks, Bobby. Actually, I tried to put a link into the early post where I brought up this spelling discrepancy. I went back to check that link just now, and it wasn't a very useful (or even noticeable) link. I edited the original, and I am re-posting it here.

There is an explanation of the "Cretalamna" vs "Cretolamna" spelling discrepancy at
. You'll have to navigate the tool-bars -->GENERA -->PALEOGENE -->LAMNIFORMES -->CRETALAMNA (scroll to the bottom "notes.")

Thanks for following up, Bobby.

--------Harry Pristis

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Okay, these Moroccan teeth are not Cenomanian. I think I have them sorted out now, and I believe that they are Early Eocene (Ypresian). I will be changing the tags on my photos where necessary.

I still have two teeth that I am (more) uncertain about -- the two that appeared to be Cretodus arcuata in my original assessment. If Cretodus is a strictly Cretaceous genus, then they are probably something else. I realized that I have two Cretodus (Plicatolamna) arcuata teeth from New Jersey in my collection. The NJ teeth seem to be somewhat stream-polished, still I don't see a lot of resemblance.

I have considered the possibility that these Moroccan teeth represent Jaekelotodus sp which have a nutrient groove and reduced (though doubled) cusplets in the line-drawings in Kent.

What do you think?

----Harry Pristis

Regarding the NJ teeth, the one on the left is definitely Cretodus arcuata = Archaeolamna kopingensis, but the one on the right is Cretalamna appendiculata.

Also I am wondering about your Moroccan teeth... to me it looks like they are stained/dyed black. A few years back I purchased a few Otodus on ebay which I thought might be from a US site due to the strange coloration. But once I had them in hand I immediately knew they looked funny. It turns out they were stained black to not look like all the cream-colored Moroccan teeth out there.

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Regarding the NJ teeth, the one on the left is definitely Cretodus arcuata = Archaeolamna kopingensis, but the one on the right is Cretalamna appendiculata.

Also I am wondering about your Moroccan teeth... to me it looks like they are stained/dyed black. A few years back I purchased a few Otodus on ebay which I thought might be from a US site due to the strange coloration. But once I had them in hand I immediately knew they looked funny. It turns out they were stained black to not look like all the cream-colored Moroccan teeth out there.

Thanks for your opinion, puller. For now, I'll leave both teeth labeled as they are. If I have to weigh your diagnosis against that of the long-time NJ collector who provided the teeth, I have to go with the diagnosis made with tooth in-hand.

The teeth are not dyed. If they look black to you, it is an artifact of the photography. I didn't buy those few teeth over the Internet.

Too bad about your dyed teeth on eBay. After you've handled as many shark teeth as some of us, you won't be so easily duped. Don't be discouraged; every screw-up is a learning opportunity! :P

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Thanks for your opinion, puller. For now, I'll leave both teeth labeled as they are. If I have to weigh your diagnosis against that of the long-time NJ collector who provided the teeth, I have to go with the diagnosis made with tooth in-hand.

The teeth are not dyed. If they look black to you, it is an artifact of the photography. I didn't buy those few teeth over the Internet.

Too bad about your dyed teeth on eBay. After you've handled as many shark teeth as some of us, you won't be so easily duped. Don't be discouraged; every screw-up is a learning opportunity! :P

No offense, but whoever made that ID for you is dead wrong. I have "handled" more NJ Cretaceous teeth than you could imagine and I know the difference. Just because I'm a n00b to this forum, doesn't mean I'm a n00b to the hobby. If you are interested in accuracy, I would suggest looking into the validity of the ID. Here are a couple quick links which should help.

http://www.geocities.com/fossofnj/shark/sharks_main.htm

http://www.njfossils.net/shark.html

Cris also has a group of NJ teeth pictured in this thread that I would say are all IDed properly.

Yes I was duped on the ebay deal because the picture the seller had was junk and it was a last minute decision to buy. But it was 10$ or something.... no big deal. The seller wasn't a bigtime fossil dealer so he probably didn't even realize either. I have only purchased a couple fossils EVER (I prefer to find my own) but I did so because Otodus is one of my favorites and the preservation didn't look Moroccan so I jumped the gun hoping I was getting some Otodus teeth from a rare locality.

I won't argue with you about whether your Moroccan teeth are dyed or not. But I know I have never seen preservation like that from Morocco and they sure look a lot like the dyed teeth that I ended up with. And your pictures are always VERY GOOD so I doubt the blackness of the roots is an "artifact". You can see how the dye has seaped into the growth cracks, no??? The species you have are common and available for sale all over the internet. Maybe you could point me to a website that has some with similar preservation to yours????

Maybe someone else has seen Moroccan teeth with preservation like this??? I admit I could be wrong, but I just have not seen it before. And we all know how common Moroccan teeth are.... someone should have seen it if they are out there.

On a definitely more controversial note.... I would label the Moroccan tooth you have labelled Cretolamna as a small Otodus instead. But this is a tough one to pinpoint. It's just a feeling I get after having seen and collected 1000s of each species, including many mostly small Otodus from Md. I think it is the shape and directional splaying of the cusps as well as the root shape that make me think Otodus rather than Cretolamna. Have you considered this?

Sorry if this sounds confrontational, it is not meant to be. I am just trying to help! I just found this forum and it is really interesting. I know you are a valuable member here and always have terrific insight on whatever the topic seems to be.

.steve

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No offense, but whoever made that ID for you is dead wrong. I have "handled" more NJ Cretaceous teeth than you could imagine and I know the difference. Just because I'm a n00b to this forum, doesn't mean I'm a n00b to the hobby. If you are interested in accuracy, I would suggest looking into the validity of the ID. Here are a couple quick links which should help.

http://www.geocities.com/fossofnj/shark/sharks_main.htm

http://www.njfossils.net/shark.html

Cris also has a group of NJ teeth pictured in this thread that I would say are all IDed properly.

Yes I was duped on the ebay deal because the picture the seller had was junk and it was a last minute decision to buy. But it was 10$ or something.... no big deal. The seller wasn't a bigtime fossil dealer so he probably didn't even realize either. I have only purchased a couple fossils EVER (I prefer to find my own) but I did so because Otodus is one of my favorites and the preservation didn't look Moroccan so I jumped the gun hoping I was getting some Otodus teeth from a rare locality.

I won't argue with you about whether your Moroccan teeth are dyed or not. But I know I have never seen preservation like that from Morocco and they sure look a lot like the dyed teeth that I ended up with. And your pictures are always VERY GOOD so I doubt the blackness of the roots is an "artifact". You can see how the dye has seaped into the growth cracks, no??? The species you have are common and available for sale all over the internet. Maybe you could point me to a website that has some with similar preservation to yours????

Maybe someone else has seen Moroccan teeth with preservation like this??? I admit I could be wrong, but I just have not seen it before. And we all know how common Moroccan teeth are.... someone should have seen it if they are out there.

On a definitely more controversial note.... I would label the Moroccan tooth you have labelled Cretolamna as a small Otodus instead. But this is a tough one to pinpoint. It's just a feeling I get after having seen and collected 1000s of each species, including many mostly small Otodus from Md. I think it is the shape and directional splaying of the cusps as well as the root shape that make me think Otodus rather than Cretolamna. Have you considered this?

Sorry if this sounds confrontational, it is not meant to be. I am just trying to help! I just found this forum and it is really interesting. I know you are a valuable member here and always have terrific insight on whatever the topic seems to be.

.steve

Well, thanks for your input, Steve.

Arguing about the preservation (color) of these Moroccan teeth is loaded with pitfalls. There are two basins that were left over from the gulf into the interior of Morocco -- the Oulad Abdoun Basin to the NE and the (?) Basin to the SW (paralleling the coast, anyway). The Oulad Abdoun Basin is the one that produces the phosphate beige-to-orange teeth. The second basin contains oil-shales. Plenty of diverse environments for differing preservation.

We don't know anything of the origin of these darker teeth, other than "Morocco." The darker teeth are not uniform in color, not even close. Several of them have a very coarse sandstone adhering to the root which seems to me to be dissimilar to the phosphate matrix.

It sounds like you're arguing that, "Because I haven't seen it before, the color phenomenon must be doctored." That is, "If I don't know about it, it must not exist!" No one has that much experience. :P

I hope you'll turn your diagnostic skills to identifying the two teeth pictured with the NJ teeth, the teeth that I thought might be Cretodus arcuatus. These two do have near-black roots and more gray than tan enameloid (slightly different from the other teeth in that lot).

I have subsequently acquired one more of these teeth in the pale phosphate color. Unhappily, there is no context for this third tooth, and it was in a mix of Cretaceous-to-Eocene teeth. Now, maybe these three are the Parotodus sp. that NS mentioned. What do you think, Steve?

------Harry Pristis

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Well, thanks for your input, Steve.

Arguing about the preservation (color) of these Moroccan teeth is loaded with pitfalls. There are two basins that were left over from the gulf into the interior of Morocco -- the Oulad Abdoun Basin to the NE and the (?) Basin to the SW (paralleling the coast, anyway). The Oulad Abdoun Basin is the one that produces the phosphate beige-to-orange teeth. The second basin contains oil-shales. Plenty of diverse environments for differing preservation.

We don't know anything of the origin of these darker teeth, other than "Morocco." The darker teeth are not uniform in color, not even close. Several of them have a very coarse sandstone adhering to the root which seems to me to be dissimilar to the phosphate matrix.

It sounds like you're arguing that, "Because I haven't seen it before, the color phenomenon must be doctored." That is, "If I don't know about it, it must not exist!" No one has that much experience. :P

I hope you'll turn your diagnostic skills to identifying the two teeth pictured with the NJ teeth, the teeth that I thought might be Cretodus arcuatus. These two do have near-black roots and more gray than tan enameloid (slightly different from the other teeth in that lot).

I have subsequently acquired one more of these teeth in the pale phosphate color. Unhappily, there is no context for this third tooth, and it was in a mix of Cretaceous-to-Eocene teeth. Now, maybe these three are the Parotodus sp. that NS mentioned. What do you think, Steve?

------Harry Pristis

Those teeth do seem very close to the rare Eocene Moroccan Parotodus for sale on a website, but I have no resource with a description of the species, so I am hesitant to call them that. I would definitely not consider them to be Cretodus arcuata (Archaeolamna kopingensis). They do resemble Cretodus teeth in general, but C. arcuata is not even a valid member of Cretodus if you trust the current prevailing scientific opinion. Not to mention, as you said, that Cretodus is supposed to be limited to the Cretaceous and all the other teeth in your group have been comfortably grouped into the Eocene. If I HAD to, I would probably label the 2 teeth in question as Cretalamna appendiculata (no subspecies) anteriors. The single tooth you have labelled as Cretalamna appendiculata would more accurately be called Cretalamna appendiculata pachyrhiza if you want to go that route rather than calling it a very small Otodus as I proposed earlier. The subspecies of Cretalamna and morphology differences between the Cretaceous and the Eocene make IDs difficult of course. (see Lauginiger & Hartstein "A guide to fossil sharks, skates, and rays from the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal Area, Delaware" 1983)

I am indeed arguing that if I and no other member of this informed group has seen Moroccan teeth of this color, that it is likely that yours are also "treated". Of course, that logic has flaws, but judge for yourself!!! It seems odd that the crowns of yours have the exact same coloration as the majority of Moroccan teeth, yet look "plaque covered" like they were found in streams which seems unlikely to me. And the root lobes are black as well. The teeth appear to be nice and sharp like the tan, cream and orange teeth and not very worn besides the "plaque". I have taken pictures of my dyed otodus teeth. The dye job seems a little more obvious on mine, but I'll be damned if they don't look exactly like your teeth, especially the "plaque"/ dye remnants which bonded more significantly to one specimen than the other two. You can compare yourself.

What do you other Moroccan sharks teeth owners/sellers/browsers out there think??

We all can be duped, Harry, especially if we haven't seen something before. ;) We both know that the Moroccans have become EXTREMELY adept at faking and/or altering fossils. It would definitely make sense to me that some creative indivudual would try dying some teeth to provide an alternative to all the bland tan, cream, light orange colored Moroccan teeth on the market.

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I cannot see the "plaque" to which you refer, but someone may have experimented with your teeth -- one can't rule out that possibility using an image over the Internet.

I don't think it would be the Moroccans doing the experiment -- everything for them is numbers, VOLUME of teeth. These little teeth, especially damaged teeth, have next to no value individually until they get down to us consumers.

To follow though on your suggestion that my teeth are treated, I'm gonna' soak 'em in acetone tomorrow. If there is no alteration of the teeth from the acetone, I'll try some toluene which I have here. If that is not effective, I'll try alcohol. If there's a petroleum-based dye on my teeth, I'll be able to tell you.

I wonder what teeth from oil-shale are like.

If none of these solvents has any effect, I'll have to decide what to do. I could put them back in my collection as "Parotodus-like" teeth from Morocco; or, I could snap off bits of them to see the interior color; or, I could do nothing at all with them.

I think, too, that I will make another image of these Parotodus-like teeth and post it here so that you can see all three. I plan to examine lots more Moroccan teeth in the near future, perhaps to buy some more of this form if I can. I'd certainly like to have an identification.

On which web-site did you see the tooth labeled as an Eocene Moroccan Parotodus?

Thanks for your efforts so far, Steve. You've been doing some deductive reasoning and labeling your opinions and anecdotal arguments -- things that are essential for us to learn something. I appreciate that. :)

-----Harry Pristis

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Oh, dear! And you gave $10.00 plus shipping for those teeth?! Well, live and learn!

Seriously, Steve, I don't blame you for being bitter. I cannot see the "plaque" to which you refer, but someone may have experimented with your teeth -- one can't rule out that possibility using an image over the Internet.

I don't think it would be the Moroccans doing the experiment -- everything for them is numbers, VOLUME of teeth. These little teeth, especially damaged teeth, have next to no value individually until they get down to us consumers.

To follow though on your suggestion that my teeth are treated, I'm gonna' soak 'em in acetone tomorrow. If there is no alteration of the teeth from the acetone, I'll try some toluene which I have here. If that is not effective, I'll try alcohol. If there's a petroleum-based dye on my teeth, I'll be able to tell you.

I wonder what teeth from oil-shale are like.

If none of these solvents has any effect, I'll have to decide what to do. I could put them back in my collection as "Parotodus-like" teeth from Morocco; or, I could snap off bits of them to see the interior color and still sell them maybe to someone who's moochie for something different.

I think, too, that I will make another image of these Parotodus-like teeth and post it here so that you can see all three. I plan to examine lots more Moroccan teeth in the near future, perhaps to buy some more of this form if I can. I'd certainly like to have an identification.

On which web-site did you see the tooth labeled as an Eocene Moroccan Parotodus?

Thanks for your efforts so far, Steve. You've been doing some deductive reasoning and labeling your opinions and anecdotal arguments -- things that are essential for us to learn something. I appreciate that. :)

-----Harry Pristis

Harry, I am not bitter in the least about my teeth. Like I said, the seller probably didn't even realize that the teeth he had were dyed. It was a very poor picture and I knew the teeth were not complete.... and it wasn't more than 10$ including shipping. The auction was about to end and I just took a risk because I had a slight feeling they might be from a certain site on the East Coast that is now closed. I was wrong and immediately thought they looked funny when I got them, but I realized later on that they looked dyed. I showed them to a very reputable friend who is a dealer who goes to MAPS every year and it took him 2 seconds to tell me I was correct, that they were dyed. He has seen similar Moroccan dyed teeth for sale a few times but never from a reputable seller. Since getting these ones, I have not seen any other dyed ones or similar looking Moroccan teeth for sale anywhere, that is, until I saw your teeth which look suspiciously similar. And I wanted to give you the heads up.

A little soak in nail polish remover worked easily on mine to remove some of the dye.

Of course you want to say the teeth you got are Parotodus because you probably are getting them real cheap in bulk mixed boxes. I would not jump at calling them Parotodus, however. If you want I can take a picture of a group of NJ Cretaceous Cretalamna appendiculata anteriors which look very similar. But I really am not sure. Maybe a lateral view of yours would help also.

www.buriedtreasurefossils.com

has Eocene teeth from Morocco and Kazakhstan which he is selling as Parotodus.

Also check:

http://homepage2.nifty.com/megalodon/Lamniformes1.htm

http://homepage2.nifty.com/megalodon/kazakC.htm

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<snip>

Of course you want to say the teeth you got are Parotodus because you probably are getting them real cheap in bulk mixed boxes. I would not jump at calling them Parotodus, however. If you want I can take a picture of a group of NJ Cretaceous Cretalamna appendiculata anteriors which look very similar. But I really am not sure. Maybe a lateral view of yours would help also.

www.buriedtreasurefossils.com

has Eocene teeth from Morocco and Kazakhstan which he is selling as Parotodus.

Also check:

http://homepage2.nifty.com/megalodon/Lamniformes1.htm

http://homepage2.nifty.com/megalodon/kazakC.htm

Steve, please! I want to say the three teeth are Parotodus IF they indeed belong in that taxon. I cannot bring myself to put "unidentified" into my drawer.

It's not a bad thing to acquire uncommon teeth at a common-tooth price, but that is not what drives me.

Thanks for the offer of pix of Cretolamna appendiculata anterior teeth. I have a handful of anterior Moroccan specimens (at least two subspecies), and these three Parotodus-like teeth are not the same.

I looked at the URLs you provided, but there was no tooth identified as Parotodus from Morocco on the last two.

BTF has a "new" listing for Moroccan Parotodus, but the page that opens is the Palaeocarcharodon listings. Perhaps the owner is doing some site-maintenance; I'll check again later.

-------Harry Pristis

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I thought there was a Moroccan Parotodus on BTF but I can't find it now. I know the species links on his website are often really screwed up, sometimes you just have to browse everything imaginable. The Eocene Kazakh ones are probably similar. I think I have another viable option for those teeth though, Serratolamna koerti, but I have seen a lot of seemingly dissimilar teeth dumped into that box. Here's pics of NJ Cretaceous Cretalamna appendiculata (no subpsecies) that look similar as well. I have found a couple Eocene ones in NJ that are exactly the same as well, so the tooth form was definitely around in the Eocene. Do yours have a large lingual protuberance? A lateral view might help ID.

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I thought there was a Moroccan Parotodus on BTF but I can't find it now. I know the species links on his website are often really screwed up, sometimes you just have to browse everything imaginable. The Eocene Kazakh ones are probably similar. I think I have another viable option for those teeth though, Serratolamna koerti, but I have seen a lot of seemingly dissimilar teeth dumped into that box. Here's pics of NJ Cretaceous Cretalamna appendiculata (no subpsecies) that look similar as well. I have found a couple Eocene ones in NJ that are exactly the same as well, so the tooth form was definitely around in the Eocene. Do yours have a large lingual protuberance? A lateral view might help ID.

Thanks for the images.

Here are the teeth that have stumped me. They are not similar to the Serratolamna koerti we get in the Late Eocene Ocala Group Limestone. (There's an image of these teeth in my "Teeth & Jaws" album.)

Teeth No's 1-3 have the same reduced, rounded lateral cusplets and robust roots.

Tooth No. 4 has the right profile with a prominent lingual protuberance and a compact u-shape root. The cusplets on No. 4, an anterior tooth, do not resemble those of the first three teeth, being more prominent and robust.

In the lateral profile images, the teeth were photographed on a flat surface sitting on their tripod roots. I flipped the image over to make the composite.

If any of them are Parotodus, that would be great to know! I just don't know what they are yet.

What do you think, Steve?

--------Harry Pristis

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I believe your 4th tooth is C. appendiculata and possibly the sub-species pachyrhiza with the large-ish cusps pointing out the way they do. I finally found the Parotodus on BTF. They are in the Moroccan catalog, under "other sharks- catalog 2". Some of what Garry is calling Parotodus have small, blunt cusps and quite closely resemble your first 3 teeth. I hadn't seen too many of these before (maybe 1 other besides mine) so I couldn't make a guess for that ID. With that being said, my Parotodus doesn't really resemble any that he has on the site. Mine has the curved blade, but the cusps are extremely minimal. The root also looks somewhat different. These could be positional things, or from a slightly different evolutionary stage. I'm still not 100% sure what your 3 teeth are, but cusped Parotodus seems to be the closest call up to now, based on the photos on Buriedtreasurefossils.

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I believe your 4th tooth is C. appendiculata and possibly the sub-species pachyrhiza with the large-ish cusps pointing out the way they do. I finally found the Parotodus on BTF. They are in the Moroccan catalog, under "other sharks- catalog 2". Some of what Garry is calling Parotodus have small, blunt cusps and quite closely resemble your first 3 teeth. I hadn't seen too many of these before (maybe 1 other besides mine) so I couldn't make a guess for that ID. With that being said, my Parotodus doesn't really resemble any that he has on the site. Mine has the curved blade, but the cusps are extremely minimal. The root also looks somewhat different. These could be positional things, or from a slightly different evolutionary stage. I'm still not 100% sure what your 3 teeth are, but cusped Parotodus seems to be the closest call up to now, based on the photos on Buriedtreasurefossils.

I knew the Moroccan ones were on there somewhere, good job finding it NS. His website can really be a pain! But going by the Eocene Kazakh Parotodus I think Harry's teeth need a much more significant lingual protuberance to call them Parotodus. Thats one of the distinguishing features, but it may have slightly less importance for the earliest ones. The Moroccan ones on BTF don't have a lateral view, but they do appear to have significant protuberances as well. I agree on NS's diagnosis of the 4th tooth, a solid C. appendiculata pachyriza (which has the most significant protuberance of the set) How's the protuberance on your Parotodus NS? In form it definitely looks a lot more Parotodus-like, at least like Oligocene and early Miocene ones from the US. I think S. koerti is still an option for Harry's also. His S. koerti from one site might look different, but I have seen a lot of divergent forms dumped in that box. It seems to be some sort of placeholder for these problematic mackeral-like teeth. I have seen S. koerti teeth with very rounded cusps and then dagger sharp ones as well. Some get quite large too, up to 1.75". You might not have noticed it but on the images of my C. appendiculata from NJ, one has those rounded cusps just like Harry's and the root shape looks the same as well, maybe just a little less robust. But the tooth NS and I think is C. appendiculata pachyriza has the same more robust root as well. There's a lot of Cretalamna forms out there guys and we might not have seen them all. Consider the easily identifiable C. appendiculata lata, a very wide tooth with triangular blade and one set of similar side cusps, but what do you the other tooth positions look like??? I do not have enough info, but I definitely haven't seen enough to call his teeth Parotodus.

Any (bad) luck with the acetone Harry?

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I believe your 4th tooth is C. appendiculata and possibly the sub-species pachyrhiza with the large-ish cusps pointing out the way they do. I finally found the Parotodus on BTF. They are in the Moroccan catalog, under "other sharks- catalog 2". Some of what Garry is calling Parotodus have small, blunt cusps and quite closely resemble your first 3 teeth. I hadn't seen too many of these before (maybe 1 other besides mine) so I couldn't make a guess for that ID. With that being said, my Parotodus doesn't really resemble any that he has on the site. Mine has the curved blade, but the cusps are extremely minimal. The root also looks somewhat different. These could be positional things, or from a slightly different evolutionary stage. I'm still not 100% sure what your 3 teeth are, but cusped Parotodus seems to be the closest call up to now, based on the photos on Buriedtreasurefossils.

Okayyy! C. appendiculata pachyrhiza it is! Another mystery resolved for the nonce. Thanks to NS and Steve!

Other Moroccan Shark Teeth - Catalog #2 --> Parotodus sp. (NEW) Earliest False Mako Shark is where Steve directed me. The link opens a page of Palaeocarcharodon listings. I'll keep checking it. I haven't done a web-search for a Parotodus yet, either.

I'm going to have a chance to rummage through some Moroccan teeth in the near future, and I'll be looking specifically for those teeth with reduced, rounded cusplets to get more tooth-positions.

No luck with the acetone, nor with toluene. I didn't get to the alcohol. I did take the opportunity to buff up the teeth a bit while damp. Ugly old things! I think I'll just throw 'em away when I find some replacements! :rolleyes:

-------Harry Pristis

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Okayyy! C. appendiculata pachyrhiza it is! Another mystery resolved for the nonce. Thanks to NS and Steve!

Other Moroccan Shark Teeth - Catalog #2 --> Parotodus sp. (NEW) Earliest False Mako Shark is where Steve directed me. The link opens a page of Palaeocarcharodon listings. I'll keep checking it. I haven't done a web-search for a Parotodus yet, either.

I'm going to have a chance to rummage through some Moroccan teeth in the near future, and I'll be looking specifically for those teeth with reduced, rounded cusplets to get more tooth-positions.

No luck with the acetone, nor with toluene. I didn't get to the alcohol. I did take the opportunity to buff up the teeth a bit while damp. Ugly old things! I think I'll just throw 'em away when I find some replacements! :rolleyes:

-------Harry Pristis

http://www.buriedtreasurefossils.com/M_Shark_Catalog_2.htm

Try a little acetone on a rag or paper towel and rub the blade of one of those Brachycarcharias. I have a feeling your rag will be blue-black pretty quickly. If not, then I guess you have some special Moroccan teeth from a really rare locality!!

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Harry, since you are good with mammals, can you take a look pictures of a mystery tooth I have on this website? It is probably too worn for a definite ID, but maybe the shape can help a little to rule some things out.

http://www.blackriverfossils.org/MarineMam...51/Default.aspx

It comes from a mixed mid-Eocene/early Miocene lag deposit in NJ. It could be a very early miocene land mammal, eocene protocetid archaeocete, or miocene whale, but I don't think it is Squalodont unless the root is pathologicly swollen. Any help would be appreciated!

-steve

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Thanks for the hyperlink again, Steve. I had been to that page a number of times, but always clicked on "Parotodus sp." in the list of species instead of just scrolling down.

Anyway, BINGO! My three teeth are what BTF is calling "Parotodus sp." I'd like to find something more authoritative, as good as the BTF owner may be. In the meantime, here is an image from the BTF site illustrating his Parotodus sp from Morocco:

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Harry, since you are good with mammals, can you take a look pictures of a mystery tooth I have on this website? It is probably too worn for a definite ID, but maybe the shape can help a little to rule some things out.

http://www.blackriverfossils.org/MarineMam...51/Default.aspx

It comes from a mixed mid-Eocene/early Miocene lag deposit in NJ. It could be a very early miocene land mammal, eocene protocetid archaeocete, or miocene whale, but I don't think it is Squalodont unless the root is pathologicly swollen. Any help would be appreciated!

-steve

If the tooth has a laterally-compressed crown and "crinkley" enamel, it's most likely whale, either a very large squalodont or an Eocene archaeocete premolar. My first reaction to your images was "pathological whale premolar!". There is a very low probability in my mind that this tooth is from a land carnivore.

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Here's a side view of my Parotodus. For it's size (1" long) I'd say it has a fairly significant lingual protuberance. It easily balances when set on the root.

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If the tooth has a laterally-compressed crown and "crinkley" enamel, it's most likely whale, either a very large squalodont or an Eocene archaeocete premolar. My first reaction to your images was "pathological whale premolar!". There is a very low probability in my mind that this tooth is from a land carnivore.

Thanks, thats definitely the way I was also leaning, but I thought there was a slim chance with the massive root that it was something like bear-dog, but I haven't seen many of those. The enamel definitely is similar to squalodon teeth from the site, but this one is just really massive compared to most of them.

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Here's a side view of my Parotodus. For it's size (1" long) I'd say it has a fairly significant lingual protuberance. It easily balances when set on the root.

Your tooth might easily fit into the range of variation for this Parotodus-like shark, NS. We are looking at such a small sample so far, it's fruitless to speculate.

When I look at your tooth, I'm reminded of the Parotodus I have from the Late Oligocene. One could almost imagine a cline of morphs from reduced-cusplets in the Eocene to no-cusplets in the Miocene.

The reduced, rounded, tab-like cusplets are remarkably similar in my three lateral examples and (apparently) on the pair of lateral teeth from BTF. I cannot see the cusplets on three of the six teeth on the BTF site.

I'll try to find more examples next week.

-------Harry Pristis

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Your tooth might easily fit into the range of variation for this Parotodus-like shark, NS. We are looking at such a small sample so far, it's fruitless to speculate.

When I look at your tooth, I'm reminded of the Parotodus I have from the Late Oligocene. One could almost imagine a cline of morphs from reduced-cusplets in the Eocene to no-cusplets in the Miocene.

The reduced, rounded, tab-like cusplets are remarkably similar in my three lateral examples and (apparently) on the pair of lateral teeth from BTF. I cannot see the cusplets on three of the six teeth on the BTF site.

I'll try to find more examples next week.

-------Harry Pristis

So Harry it seems like the ONLY ?significant? difference you are considering now that you think they are Parotodus are some rounded cusplets. Seems extremely speculative to me. I have already pointed out that some Cretalamna have rounded cusps and some very sharp, same is true for S. koerti and plenty of others probably. It seems you have totally disregarded my point about where are Cretalamna from other tooth positions? C. appendiculata pachyriza we can differentiate (probably) but theres C. appendiculata, C. appendiculata lata and maybe others in the Moroccan mix! What about the weak nutrient groove that yours seems to have, but I can't tell for sure from the pic? None of the Moroccan or Eocene Kazakh ones seem to have a nutrient groove. And the protuberances seem a lot more significant on most of the Moroccan and Kazakh ones as well, but thats hard to judge unless you have both teeth in hand. I can understand you wanting to call them Parotodus, especially since you obviously sell extras, but it seems an extremely weak ID to me. That said, I would also pick them up just because they are a little different if I had the time to dig through mixed boxes of Moroccan teeth that are probably going for pretty cheap. Good luck and report back if you get more, especially those ones possibly from oil shales ;)

if you are good with miocene land mammal astragaluses (astragali?) maybe you could check this specimen out for me

http://www.blackriverfossils.org/LandMamma...31/Default.aspx

-steve

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Thanks, thats definitely the way I was also leaning, but I thought there was a slim chance with the massive root that it was something like bear-dog, but I haven't seen many of those. The enamel definitely is similar to squalodon teeth from the site, but this one is just really massive compared to most of them.

Here's a canine from a large bear-dog.

post-42-1209181591_thumb.jpg

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So Harry it seems like the ONLY ?significant? difference you are considering now that you think they are Parotodus are some rounded cusplets. Seems extremely speculative to me. I have already pointed out that some Cretalamna have rounded cusps and some very sharp, same is true for S. koerti and plenty of others probably. It seems you have totally disregarded my point about where are Cretalamna from other tooth positions? C. appendiculata pachyriza we can differentiate (probably) but theres C. appendiculata, C. appendiculata lata and maybe others in the Moroccan mix! What about the weak nutrient groove that yours seems to have, but I can't tell for sure from the pic? None of the Moroccan or Eocene Kazakh ones seem to have a nutrient groove. And the protuberances seem a lot more significant on most of the Moroccan and Kazakh ones as well, but thats hard to judge unless you have both teeth in hand. I can understand you wanting to call them Parotodus, especially since you obviously sell extras, but it seems an extremely weak ID to me. That said, I would also pick them up just because they are a little different if I had the time to dig through mixed boxes of Moroccan teeth that are probably going for pretty cheap. Good luck and report back if you get more, especially those ones possibly from oil shales ;)

if you are good with miocene land mammal astragaluses (astragali?) maybe you could check this specimen out for me

http://www.blackriverfossils.org/LandMamma...31/Default.aspx

-steve

Look, Steve, I have not called these teeth Parotodus; BTF calls them that. I call 'em "Parotodus-like" because that's the most useful descriptor we have at the moment. As I said, I would like to see something authoritative in writing about these teeth.

It seems to me that the first sort of any lot of Moroccan teeth will be for completeness. The second sort will be for hidden repairs (yes, I still get fooled when I'm in a hurrry!), and the third sort will be for obvious and consistent characters like reduced, tab-like cusplets.

Comparison of other characters takes time and patience (and collaboration such as I had with NS earlier). I want a larger sample of these Parotodus-like teeth. I made mistakes early-on with these Eocene teeth that could have been avoided with a larger sample.

These Parotodus-like teeth are not common or we'd all have a half-dozen good examples, and they'd appear in the literature. If I am lucky enough to get a few extra, you don't mind if I sell them, do you? . . . even if I sell them as "Paratodus-like" shark teeth? I'd sell to you, despite your cynical view of my motives. -_-

I am particularly fond of astragali and calcanea. They are diagnostic, and they survive when other bones don't. I have hundreds of them here, not all in my drawer, of course. I studied your images of the astragalus in question. My conclusion is that it most resembles an Equus horse astragalus.

Here is an image that compares some common astragali. They are photographed from an angle that presents the side (proximal) which is the least damaged part of your bone. They are all from the same side of the animal. You can draw your own conclusions.

More subscribers here would see these ID question in the FOSSIL ID forum, Steve. I suspect that there are only a few of us interested in these Eocene shark teeth. I don't like to unnecessarily inflate this pinned thread about shark teeth with mammal posts.

---------Harry Pristis

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wow i have really enjoyed reading these posts, i have learnt a lot! and i must say i really want to get my hands on a bulk amount of these teeth! i may have to head to morroco :P

thanks for a great read!

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