Finally ... a discussion of fossil sharks from Morocco and transitional teeth.

[siteseer]

Harry,

As you noted, the older papers on the geology of the Moroccan phosphates, Arambourg (1952) being the best-known and most ambitious, were written in French and remain largely untranslated other than excerpts. Those works have been reviewed and revised, again largely in French (e.g. Noubhani and Cappetta, 1997) but the figures provide a good overview for all researchers and collectors of any language.

Noubhani, A. and H. Cappetta. 1997.

Les Orectolobiformes, Carcharhiniformes et Myliobatiformes (Elasmobranchii, Neoselachii) des Bassins a phosphate du Maroc (Maastrichtien-Lutetien basal): Systematique, biostratigraphie, evolution et dynamique des faunes. Palaeo Ichthyologica 8.

Here is Fig. 1 of Noubhani and Cappetta (1997). It shows the locations of the phosphate basins within Morocco.

[siteseer]

Here is Figure 2 of Noubhani and Cappetta (1997):

It provides the names of the collecting areas. In the Ouled Abdoun Khouribga is the best-known among fossil collectors but some teeth are labelled as coming from Oued Zem as well. The French have been doing a lot of collecting in the Ganntour Basin but you don't see a lot of that getting on the market - teeth you'd get primarily through trades with the people who collect in personally.

Edited June 7, 2010 by siteseer

[siteseer]

Here is Figure 4 of Noubhani and Cappetta (1997). It provides a combined lithostratographic column of the Ganntour Basin assembled from what is seen at different localities because no single locality offers the complete column.

[siteseer]

I knew the Moroccan ones were on there somewhere, good job finding it NS. His website can really be a pain! But going by the Eocene Kazakh Parotodus I think Harry's teeth need a much more significant lingual protuberance to call them Parotodus. Thats one of the distinguishing features, but it may have slightly less importance for the earliest ones. The Moroccan ones on BTF don't have a lateral view, but they do appear to have significant protuberances as well. I agree on NS's diagnosis of the 4th tooth, a solid C. appendiculata pachyriza (which has the most significant protuberance of the set) How's the protuberance on your Parotodus NS? In form it definitely looks a lot more Parotodus-like, at least like Oligocene and early Miocene ones from the US. I think S. koerti is still an option for Harry's also. His S. koerti from one site might look different, but I have seen a lot of divergent forms dumped in that box. It seems to be some sort of placeholder for these problematic mackeral-like teeth. I have seen S. koerti teeth with very rounded cusps and then dagger sharp ones as well. Some get quite large too, up to 1.75". You might not have noticed it but on the images of my C. appendiculata from NJ, one has those rounded cusps just like Harry's and the root shape looks the same as well, maybe just a little less robust. But the tooth NS and I think is C. appendiculata pachyriza has the same more robust root as well. There's a lot of Cretalamna forms out there guys and we might not have seen them all. Consider the easily identifiable C. appendiculata lata, a very wide tooth with triangular blade and one set of similar side cusps, but what do you the other tooth positions look like??? I do not have enough info, but I definitely haven't seen enough to call his teeth Parotodus.

Steve,

It's good to see you in one this with all your experience with appendiculata.

I agree with NS about the first three teeth being in the running as candidates for early Parotodus, but as you noticed, they seem to lack the prominent lingual protuberance diagnostic of the genus. You can see the tooth type they could have/most likely evolved from, though. We would expect that the direct ancestor of a given genus would not bear all the characters of its descendant. I would not call them Parotodus but a variant of Otodus perhaps deserving of a name but it would have to be determined if these teeth come out of the same bed or beds of a rather tight chronologic range. If teeth like this are found in the Middle-Late Paleocene and Early Eocene (like your Cretaceous appendiculata variants), then it could be just a weird Otodus, though it wouldn't rule out the form completely as the Parotodus ancestor.

I have two Middle Eocene (Bartonian) teeth from Kazakhstan that look more like Parotodus in miniature with weaker cusplets than in Otodus and a prominent lingual protuberance (will try to get some photos ASAP).

S. koerti is out of the running as it was a Middle Eocene to possibly Late Eocene form. It is found in Morocco but only at a few sites where the uppermost layers of the phosphates have not been eroded away and where teeth are far less common and generally not as well preserved as in older beds. These are sites not generally exploited commercially for the phosphate so the teeth would most likely not be seen at shows - teeth only available through collectors who have hunted there.

[siteseer]

Your tooth might easily fit into the range of variation for this Parotodus-like shark, NS. We are looking at such a small sample so far, it's fruitless to speculate.

When I look at your tooth, I'm reminded of the Parotodus I have from the Late Oligocene. One could almost imagine a cline of morphs from reduced-cusplets in the Eocene to no-cusplets in the Miocene.

The reduced, rounded, tab-like cusplets are remarkably similar in my three lateral examples and (apparently) on the pair of lateral teeth from BTF. I cannot see the cusplets on three of the six teeth on the BTF site.

-------Harry Pristis

Harry,

I have a tooth like that from the Suwannee River. I was told it was from the Late Eocene. I got it years ago (early-mid 90's) and thought it could be an early Parotodus.

[siteseer]

Look, Steve, I have not called these teeth Parotodus; BTF calls them that. I call 'em "Parotodus-like" I am particularly fond of astragali and calcanea. They are diagnostic, and they survive when other bones don't. I have hundreds of them here, not all in my drawer, of course. I studied your images of the astragalus in question. My conclusion is that it most resembles an Equus horse astragalus.

--------Harry Pristis[/size]

Harry,

Jumping onto the mammal side-thread within this shark discussion...Did you know Father Floyd Jenkins of Loyola Marymount in Los Angeles? He was a Jesuit teaching biology and also a fossil collector using his finds as his teaching collection. Like you, he loved the astragulus and calcaneus. He was building a side collection of them to eventually cover all the applicable mammal orders right up to the time of his passing a few years ago. A few times in the 90's, he invited me to see his collection. He was into mammals in general (had some Eocene stuff from Wyoming) and mollusks as well. He didn't have many sharks (traded most of them to Gordon Hubbell). I was tracking down some specimens for him. He wanted some from the cave bear the last time I talked to him.

[siteseer]

Has anyone gone on record as supporting this evolutionary scheme?

C. appendiculata

\__Otodontidae

\__Issuridae

\__Paleocarcharodon

We can find both Otodus Obliqus, Otodus Subserratus and Cretolamna Appendiculata in the london clay isle of sheppey UK and the site has only 4my from one end to the other ageing at about 48-52mya, it was first thought that cretolamna became extinct and did not survive the extinction marking the end of the cretaceous however sheppey shows clearly that cretolamna survived into the Eocene. Are we therefore to believe that these two sharks swam side by side or was there a transitional period around that time. It seems that most of the otodus are transitional at sheppey as they have lost those true obliqus traits that are evident in the earlier Otodus from Tankerton. So the question has to be what become of Cretolamna at that point onwards. I am aware that Paleocarcharodon had already come to be but dont think Issuridea were around at that point so it is is possible that the surviving Cretolamna evolved into Isurus later on.

We can also find Isurolamna affinis on sheppey which are very simular to cretolamna, Is it possible that these could be from the same branch also. Please excuse me if this sounds stupid as I am not that farmiliar with sharks teeth. But based on teeth this would seem the obvious answer to me but as I say im just a mere amatuer.

It does appear that Cretalamna was an important genus possibly ancestral either directly or through intermediates. Isurolamna could be the ancestor to Isurus or Cretalamna. For whatever reason Cretalamna disappeared sometime in the Ypresian after exhibiting significant hardiness across the K/T boundary. Perhaps it was outcompeted by some of its own descendants.

Many shark genera have long chronologic ranges so it is not surprising to see Cretalamna in the same rocks as Otodus. I'm not sure of the earliest occurrence of Otodus but it's somewhere in the Paleocene perhaps just before the Thanetian. As with early Parotodus, it might be tough to get a consensus on whether a given tooth is a Cretalamna variant or an early Otodus. This would be more easily seen with a pile of teeth from a bed representing the time of the split or just after that interval. An early Otodus upper tooth would have more rounded root lobes, a slightly longer and more curved crown (less broad at the base), and more divergently-directed lateral cusplets.

[non-remanié]

Jess, are you saying that you have seen teeth like this and are convinced that Harry’s aren't dyed for some reason? Do you have any in your collection to compare to right now? Have you also seen the dyed teeth and known them to be dyed? I am not at all saying that I don't believe there are teeth preserved differently from Morocco because I have not seen them, but that was my experience when this thread originally was started. And since then I have seen a few differently preserved specimens since the time of my original comments. But none of these other teeth looked unnatural as Harry's seem to. I would be more inclined to believe Harry's pictured specimens were not dyed if they exhibited A HINT of some different coloration scheme, besides black. The blades are exactly identical to the blades shown in my pictures of dyed teeth.... typical Moroccan light colors, but the only thing different is a jet black root rather than a light colored root. There are only a few processes that I can think of that would account for their color: 1) purposeful dye-job by an unscrupulous dealer at some level 2) exposure to a secondary (more recent) mineralization process similar to what is seen in shark teeth found in various rivers all over the East Coast US 3) staining due to an industrial process related to phosphate production possibly? Another informed dealer and collector chimed in on the prospect of these particular teeth being dyed or stained in another thread from what I recall and backed my idea up, but I don’t know if I will be able to find that thread and its not really important anyway. It could be that there is a site maybe "Gigou near Seffrou" that someone was trying to emulate with the dyejob so you could definitely be right in that regard, but these teeth look exactly the same as mine and exactly as I would expect either dyed teeth or possibly teeth that were found in a riverbed to look. I just don’t see Moroccan collectors sifting creeks for loose stained shark teeth, but I don’t claim to know for sure, it just sounds less plausible to me. Also, even if the plaque/stain/dye is from a riverbed, it should be able to SOMEWHAT be removed just with soap and water or mr clean magic eraser, so I never really bought into the idea that Harry claimed to have attempted to clean his specimens with a more potent solvent and had absolutely no results.

Also Harry’s “uniquely colored” teeth seem like a mixture of ages to me, not just one time period which also suggests some later alteration originating from a mixed grouping of fossils such as that which a dealer at some level might end up with. I am not positive about this, but I believe the Cretalamna biauriculata maroccana should be limited to the late Cretaceous while the other teeth appear to all be Eocene.

Anyway, none of that really matters to the main issue here. You point out my biggest problem with this entire thread from the beginning and why I may have been a little overzealous at times. Harry was ASSIGNING ages and names based on absolutely no precise locality data and I found that to be a very troubling practice for a fossil dealer to be engaged in. Basically I was trying to be a bit of a devil’s advocate, but I do agree with most of the conclusions made primarily with the help of NS.

I wish your scans were a little larger, but they suffice and do add to the conversation greatly! Thanks for adding them

-steve

Steve,

It's good to see you in one this with all your experience with appendiculata.

I agree with NS about the first three teeth being in the running as candidates for early Parotodus, but as you noticed, they seem to lack the prominent lingual protuberance diagnostic of the genus. You can see the tooth type they could have/most likely evolved from, though. We would expect that the direct ancestor of a given genus would not bear all the characters of its descendant. I would not call them Parotodus but a variant of Otodus perhaps deserving of a name but it would have to be determined if these teeth come out of the same bed or beds of a rather tight chronologic range. If teeth like this are found in the Middle-Late Paleocene and Early Eocene (like your Cretaceous appendiculata variants), then it could be just a weird Otodus, though it wouldn't rule out the form completely as the Parotodus ancestor.

I have two Middle Eocene (Bartonian) teeth from Kazakhstan that look more like Parotodus in miniature with weaker cusplets than in Otodus and a prominent lingual protuberance (will try to get some photos ASAP).

S. koerti is out of the running as it was a Middle Eocene to possibly Late Eocene form. It is found in Morocco but only at a few sites where the uppermost layers of the phosphates have not been eroded away and where teeth are far less common and generally not as well preserved as in older beds. These are sites not generally exploited commercially for the phosphate so the teeth would most likely not be seen at shows - teeth only available through collectors who have hunted there.

[siteseer]

Jess, are you saying that you have seen teeth like this and are convinced that Harry’s aren't dyed for some reason? Do you have any in your collection to compare to right now? Have you also seen the dyed teeth and known them to be dyed? I am not at all saying that I don't believe there are teeth preserved differently from Morocco because I have not seen them, but that was my experience when this thread originally was started. And since then I have seen a few differently preserved specimens since the time of my original comments. But none of these other teeth looked unnatural as Harry's seem to. I would be more inclined to believe Harry's pictured specimens were not dyed if they exhibited A HINT of some different coloration scheme, besides black. The blades are exactly identical to the blades shown in my pictures of dyed teeth.... typical Moroccan light colors, but the only thing different is a jet black root rather than a light colored root. There are only a few processes that I can think of that would account for their color: 1) purposeful dye-job by an unscrupulous dealer at some level 2) exposure to a secondary (more recent) mineralization process similar to what is seen in shark teeth found in various rivers all over the East Coast US 3) staining due to an industrial process related to phosphate production possibly? Another informed dealer and collector chimed in on the prospect of these particular teeth being dyed or stained in another thread from what I recall and backed my idea up, but I don’t know if I will be able to find that thread and its not really important anyway. It could be that there is a site maybe "Gigou near Seffrou" that someone was trying to emulate with the dyejob so you could definitely be right in that regard, but these teeth look exactly the same as mine and exactly as I would expect either dyed teeth or possibly teeth that were found in a riverbed to look. I just don’t see Moroccan collectors sifting creeks for loose stained shark teeth, but I don’t claim to know for sure, it just sounds less plausible to me. Also, even if the plaque/stain/dye is from a riverbed, it should be able to SOMEWHAT be removed just with soap and water or mr clean magic eraser, so I never really bought into the idea that Harry claimed to have attempted to clean his specimens with a more potent solvent and had absolutely no results.

Also Harry’s “uniquely colored” teeth seem like a mixture of ages to me, not just one time period which also suggests some later alteration originating from a mixed grouping of fossils such as that which a dealer at some level might end up with. I am not positive about this, but I believe the Cretalamna biauriculata maroccana should be limited to the late Cretaceous while the other teeth appear to all be Eocene.

-steve

Steve,

I looked at Harry's teeth (labelled as S. gafsana but all are S. aschersoni according to the literature though some seem to lean towards the former) and a few of them look like they came out of a tar pit. The black roots and crowns are clearly darker than the teeth I have from a "black matrix" site in Morocco. The teeth I have are dark but the crowns are more of a gunmetal blue/gray with lighter-colored serrations and the matrix is more of a dark brown. The article I read clearly said that the sediment could be brown or black. I conclude that there are darker teeth from the phosphates than I have seen so far.

There are sites around Bakersfield, California where oil has seeped into the STH bonebed (Middle Miocene) leaving many teeth with black-splotched roots and crowns also exhibiting an overall dark orange to red color. I don't think I've seen teeth that were all black like Harry's teeth. However, in the Chandler Bridge Formation (Late Oligocene) exposed around South Carolina, the teeth are often light-colored but a few teeth bear completely black roots and crowns.

With that said, years ago, there was a dealer from Florida who was dying Moroccan teeth as an alternative color for jewelry purposes. He did tell people he was doing it. Some of those teeth may have entered the collector market with the fact that they were dyed perhaps not passed on to the last dealer with them and therefore unknown to any collector who bought from him. However, I don't think the tactic was very successful as a sales gimmick because I haven't seen anyone else doing it recently and it appears relatively few entered the market as jewelry or collector specimens.

I had a couple of teeth that appeared dyed and sent them to a chemist friend who tried different things (alcohol, acetone, bleach, etc.) and was able to remove the dye revealing the original yellowish color of some of the Early Eocene teeth.

With all that said, it would interesting to know if the teeth are coated (looks thicker than just stained) or if the coating is some kind of encrustation. Some STH teeth and bones have manganese encrustations that are virtually impossible to clean off without chipping into the enameloid and bone surfaces.

Yes, Cretalamna maroccana (I've seen it called that with "biauriculata" omitted) is a Late Cretaceous species. Because some Cretaceous teeth and some clearly Early Eocene teeth have this color, it becomes harder to explain with a natural process that would have to fully infiltrate many meters of rock to throughly blacken the teeth. I don't know what's involved in phosphate processing. Some teeth could be getting splashed with some chemical or perhaps soaked in spots where engine oil accumulates. Maybe someone at a mine is doing it for laughs.

Jess

[siteseer]

"It could be that there is a site maybe "Gigou near Seffrou" that someone was trying to emulate with the dyejob so you could definitely be right in that regard..."

Anyway, none of that really matters to the main issue here. You point out my biggest problem with this entire thread from the beginning and why I may have been a little overzealous at times. Harry was ASSIGNING ages and names based on absolutely no precise locality data and I found that to be a very troubling practice for a fossil dealer to be engaged in. Basically I was trying to be a bit of a devil’s advocate, but I do agree with most of the conclusions made primarily with the help of NS.

I wish your scans were a little larger, but they suffice and do add to the conversation greatly! Thanks for adding them

-steve

Steve,

I have heard of a site of a different name where there is black matrix but can't recall it. "Gigou near Seffrou" is a site I had not heard of and have still never seen on a map. I forgot to ask a friend about it.

As you know, the teeth of C appendiculata can show some variation across time but you can also find teeth from the Late Cretaceous of TX or NJ that are identical in form to Late Paleocene teeth from MD. Because the Moroccan teeth are not sorted by age or site, we are probably seeing appendiculata from the same age range. Any weird teeth (apparent transitionals or unusually large/small specimens), especially those species that survived across epochs, are therefore just junk to science and to some extent to many collectors.

I see your point. Harry was trying to narrow down the possibilities of the ages with tooth identifications but I don't know if he really thought he could determine the exact age or site that way - just an attempt to satisfy the requirement of his drawer. Do most of the teeth we see come from a particular basin or phosphate processing plant? It would be interesting to see the operation in more than one basin. You'd want to go with people who know the territory and are fellow collectors.

In the past couple of days I emailed a friend with collecting experience in Morocco and asked him about the Cretalamna-Otodus transition and Parotodus. Here are his responses with translations:

Otodus du Maroc

J'ai des Otodus obliquus des niveaux thanétien (quelques dents) et surtout yprésien. Il y a des dents qui "ressemblent" à Otodus, dans le niveau danien et surtout à Youssoufia. Mais je pense qu'il s'agit de "Cretolamna appendiculata". On trouve cette espèce du Maastrichtien à l' Yprésien supérieur.

Translation:

Otodus of Morocco

I have Otodus obliquus from Thanetian layers (some teeth) but especially from the Ypresian. There are teeth that "resemble" Otodus in the Danian, especially at Yousouffia, but I think they are Cretolamna appendiculata. This species is found from the Maastrichtian to Upper Ypresian.

Parotodus sp.

Cette espèce se trouve dans l'yprésien. On trouve des dents avec et sans denticule. Cappetta doit publier son Handbook n°2 vers la fin de l'année et j'espère qu'il en parlera. La liaison avec Otodus semble évidente.

"Serratolamna" gafsana

Je ne pense pas que cette espèce existe au Maroc. On trouve dans le niveau yprésien les dents de "Cretolamna" aschersoni en grande quantité. C'est encore une question à règler par les spécialistes...

Parotodus sp.

Translation: This species comes from the Ypresian. The teeth are found with and without cusplets. Cappetta has to publish his second edition of the Handbook towards the end of the year and I hope he will discuss this. The transition from Otodus seems evident.

Serratolamna gafsana:

Translation: I don't think that this species is found in Morocco. The teeth of "Cretolamna" aschersoni are collected in large quantities in the Ypresian layer. It remains a question to be answered by specialists.

He also noted that he didn't see the difference between gafsana and aschersoni - another opinion for the thread.

I'll try to rescan that one page with the localities. The others are a little small but seemed acceptable to me, especially after I heard some members would have trouble opening large jpgs. It had been a few years since my last batch of scans.

I'll try to get some photos to post tomorrow.

[non-remanié]

Jess,

All of your postulates make sense especially the possibility of an oil seep or similar oil situation, but in my mind, with all the evidence so far I just can’t help thinking about Occam’s Razor. Things just sort of make sense especially with your added juicy tidbit about the specific dealer in Florida.

As for black on black Chandler Bridge fm. teeth, I would wager that is more closely related to the amount of reworking, of which there is plenty of in the low country SC. In my experience, even within beds that typically produce pristine teeth there are the odd few heavily worn teeth that obviously have been rolled and suffered more exposure on the sea floor (reworked to some extent) and typically these teeth are darker colored, approaching black. (I have a diagentic theory for this that I will save for another time) I don't know the specifics, but there are plenty of lag type deposits to account for reworked teeth from SC. It seems like to me many collectors down there are finding stuff reworked into the surficial gravel deposits in creeks. Perhaps they tend to call the teeth Chandler Bridge fm if the gravel rests on top of that formation locally? Actually the below paper presents a simple geology of the Chandler Bridge that could easily account for differential preservations within the formation as well.

http://www.museum.state.sc.us/!UserFiles/docs/Collections/KnightChandlerBridge.pdf

It is my understanding that reworking was not a significant factor in the accumulation of the rich fossil bone beds associated with the Moroccan phosphates. Rather they are products of long term winnowing and episodic mass die-offs. A long lasting, tectonically stable, highly productive marine shoal complex developed on a widespread shallow shelf platform with relatively little detrital sediment influx allowing the phosphate and fossils to accumulate in significant amounts with the help of continual winnowing.

Abundant Phosphorus in the form of precipitating apatite recycled from the highly productive water column, did not put biogenic apatite at a premium in the oceanic Phosphorus cycle and instead allowed for preferential preservation of bone, rather than the dissolution of it. Or is that an oversimplification? I’m not positive about that part, but it sounds good to me Of course none of this even precludes the possibility of adjacent similar aged tooth bearing strata with a slightly different depositional history, but that also really doesn’t quite jive with what I see (typically colored phosphate teeth with a secondary stain/plaque/dye/encrustation). In fact, the Maastrichtian oil shale deposits share a history with the phosphorite deposits but there are also some major differences of course.

I believe the usual light colors of the typical Moroccan phosphate fossils is related to the lack of Mn, Fe and possibly REEs from local terrigenous input during early diagenesis. The lack of these elements has been experimentally shown on Otodus vertebral centra from the Eocene. But the reasoning should apply (in varying extents) to most of the Phosphate beds as well. Possibly the Paleocene and Maastrichtian teeth sometimes come in darker shades than the more common light tan Eocene teeth because there was a slightly higher terrigenous input which had an effect. In fact the oil shales and phosphate beds grade into one another, but the oil shales end with the Maastrichtian, likely the result of that part of the basin becoming emergent.

As for the Manganese encrusted STH specimens, would that phenomena happen to be more common in slightly more reworked STH teeth? Just wondering…

-steve

Steve,

I looked at Harry's teeth (labelled as S. gafsana but all are S. aschersoni according to the literature though some seem to lean towards the former) and a few of them look like they came out of a tar pit. The black roots and crowns are clearly darker than the teeth I have from a "black matrix" site in Morocco. The teeth I have are dark but the crowns are more of a gunmetal blue/gray with lighter-colored serrations and the matrix is more of a dark brown. The article I read clearly said that the sediment could be brown or black. I conclude that there are darker teeth from the phosphates than I have seen so far.

There are sites around Bakersfield, California where oil has seeped into the STH bonebed (Middle Miocene) leaving many teeth with black-splotched roots and crowns also exhibiting an overall dark orange to red color. I don't think I've seen teeth that were all black like Harry's teeth. However, in the Chandler Bridge Formation (Late Oligocene) exposed around South Carolina, the teeth are often light-colored but a few teeth bear completely black roots and crowns.

With that said, years ago, there was a dealer from Florida who was dying Moroccan teeth as an alternative color for jewelry purposes. He did tell people he was doing it. Some of those teeth may have entered the collector market with the fact that they were dyed perhaps not passed on to the last dealer with them and therefore unknown to any collector who bought from him. However, I don't think the tactic was very successful as a sales gimmick because I haven't seen anyone else doing it recently and it appears relatively few entered the market as jewelry or collector specimens.

I had a couple of teeth that appeared dyed and sent them to a chemist friend who tried different things (alcohol, acetone, bleach, etc.) and was able to remove the dye revealing the original yellowish color of some of the Early Eocene teeth.

With all that said, it would interesting to know if the teeth are coated (looks thicker than just stained) or if the coating is some kind of encrustation. Some STH teeth and bones have manganese encrustations that are virtually impossible to clean off without chipping into the enameloid and bone surfaces.

Yes, Cretalamna maroccana (I've seen it called that with "biauriculata" omitted) is a Late Cretaceous species. Because some Cretaceous teeth and some clearly Early Eocene teeth have this color, it becomes harder to explain with a natural process that would have to fully infiltrate many meters of rock to throughly blacken the teeth. I don't know what's involved in phosphate processing. Some teeth could be getting splashed with some chemical or perhaps soaked in spots where engine oil accumulates. Maybe someone at a mine is doing it for laughs.

Jess

[non-remanié]

Jess,

Actually I do see some notable differences in NJ Cretalamna appendiculata and those from the Md Paleocene although they are very subtle and difficult for me to enumerate. Laterals have the most in common with NJ late Cretaceous specimens. Oddly the early Eocene Nanjemoy fm. of Va seems to produce appendiculata that are closer to (my) NJ standards , especially the laterals, but I have not seen many of them from that locality. I tend to believe there are many small Otodus from the Md Paleocene (especially the same site which produces the Paleocarcharodon) because the appendiculata form there seems to be consistent in size through the tooth positions. But that leads to calling teeth from Morocco which are probably called appendiculata type being referred to small Otodus in Md. Either there is a second Cretalamna type possibly intermediary between Otodus present in the late Paleocene Aquia fm. of Md or the majority are really just small Otodus. But going with Herman and probably Arambourg this intermediary form is more commonly referred to appendiculata in Morocco. Its a confounding situation and I will add some pictures eventually to better illustrate.

Actually Harry had another thread at the same time of this one where exactly this confusion was apparent. I had more of a problem with the content of that thread than this one because of the lack of locality information. I brought up the pachyrhiza form MERELY as an addition to the discussion and all of a sudden he was throwing that label on his specimens of highly questionable age. I would like to see Herman's description of pachyrhiza unless you can tell me that it has been largely ignored. The only uses I have seen of it seem somewhat questionable at the least.

I tried to enhance your stratigraphic column from Cappetta and add some translations for those interested, but I haven't attempted to translate most of the text. Your scan does print up well enough to read but its a little tougher for me to read on my computer monitor. And if I wanted to OCR and translate the text with a translation engine it probably would have major problems with the lower resolution.

-steve

Steve,

I have heard of a site of a different name where there is black matrix but can't recall it. "Gigou near Seffrou" is a site I had not heard of and have still never seen on a map. I forgot to ask a friend about it.

As you know, the teeth of C appendiculata can show some variation across time but you can also find teeth from the Late Cretaceous of TX or NJ that are identical in form to Late Paleocene teeth from MD. Because the Moroccan teeth are not sorted by age or site, we are probably seeing appendiculata from the same age range. Any weird teeth (apparent transitionals or unusually large/small specimens), especially those species that survived across epochs, are therefore just junk to science and to some extent to many collectors.

I see your point. Harry was trying to narrow down the possibilities of the ages with tooth identifications but I don't know if he really thought he could determine the exact age or site that way - just an attempt to satisfy the requirement of his drawer. Do most of the teeth we see come from a particular basin or phosphate processing plant? It would be interesting to see the operation in more than one basin. You'd want to go with people who know the territory and are fellow collectors.

In the past couple of days I emailed a friend with collecting experience in Morocco and asked him about the Cretalamna-Otodus transition and Parotodus. Here are his responses with translations:

Otodus du Maroc

J'ai des Otodus obliquus des niveaux thanétien (quelques dents) et surtout yprésien. Il y a des dents qui "ressemblent" à Otodus, dans le niveau danien et surtout à Youssoufia. Mais je pense qu'il s'agit de "Cretolamna appendiculata". On trouve cette espèce du Maastrichtien à l' Yprésien supérieur.

Translation:

Otodus of Morocco

I have Otodus obliquus from Thanetian layers (some teeth) but especially from the Ypresian. There are teeth that "resemble" Otodus in the Danian, especially at Yousouffia, but I think they are Cretolamna appendiculata. This species is found from the Maastrichtian to Upper Ypresian.

Parotodus sp.

Cette espèce se trouve dans l'yprésien. On trouve des dents avec et sans denticule. Cappetta doit publier son Handbook n°2 vers la fin de l'année et j'espère qu'il en parlera. La liaison avec Otodus semble évidente.

"Serratolamna" gafsana

Je ne pense pas que cette espèce existe au Maroc. On trouve dans le niveau yprésien les dents de "Cretolamna" aschersoni en grande quantité. C'est encore une question à règler par les spécialistes...

Parotodus sp.

Translation: This species comes from the Ypresian. The teeth are found with and without cusplets. Cappetta has to publish his second edition of the Handbook towards the end of the year and I hope he will discuss this. The transition from Otodus seems evident.

Serratolamna gafsana:

Translation: I don't think that this species is found in Morocco. The teeth of "Cretolamna" aschersoni are collected in large quantities in the Ypresian layer. It remains a question to be answered by specialists.

He also noted that he didn't see the difference between gafsana and aschersoni - another opinion for the thread.

I'll try to rescan that one page with the localities. The others are a little small but seemed acceptable to me, especially after I heard some members would have trouble opening large jpgs. It had been a few years since my last batch of scans.

I'll try to get some photos to post tomorrow.

[siteseer]

As for black on black Chandler Bridge fm. teeth, I would wager that is more closely related to the amount of reworking, of which there is plenty of in the low country SC. In my experience, even within beds that typically produce pristine teeth there are the odd few heavily worn teeth that obviously have been rolled and suffered more exposure on the sea floor (reworked to some extent) and typically these teeth are darker colored, approaching black.

-steve

The black-black tooth I have is in really nice shape - as well preserved as the others I have. I know that doesn't preclude it from being reworked but the serrations show no wear.

[siteseer]

Jess,

As for the Manganese encrusted STH specimens, would that phenomena happen to be more common in slightly more reworked STH teeth? Just wondering…

-steve

Steve,

From what I've read, the manganese encrustation, recently termed "ferromanganese," indicates perhaps 700,000-800,000 years of nondeposition (and likely winnowing) on the seafloor (Pyenson et al., 2009 - an article discussed in another thread last year). Some bones are in great shape and some Hexanchus teeth (the most fragile of the larger teeth) are complete but you can also find bones that are broken and appear to have been crudely planed. While some transport is in evidence (occasional land mammal remains have been found and have been interpreted as having been woodland-dwellers washed out to sea by a nearby river), no one has proposed that the vertebrate remains were reworked from another formation. I have read in the older papers that the few invertebrate molds (no shell preserved) that are found may have been reworked but I think they have been merely the lucky souvenirs of a mollusk fauna under conditions that did not favor preservation of shells (perhaps acids from the river aided in the destruction of most of the mollusks prior to fossilization or it was an area not well populated by them for some reason in the first place?).

Jess

[siteseer]

Jess,

I tried to enhance your stratigraphic column from Cappetta and add some translations for those interested, but I haven't attempted to translate most of the text. Your scan does print up well enough to read but its a little tougher for me to read on my computer monitor. And if I wanted to OCR and translate the text with a translation engine it probably would have major problems with the lower resolution.

-steve

Steve,

The word "couche" directly translates to "bed" in English both in the geological sense and for home furniture. "Sillon" doesn't translate as well. I would go with "seam" more than "furrow" for that. I don't understand the difference in terminology between "couches" and "sillons" at the site called "Recette IV" (which I read as "mine landing #4" where the phosphate ore is dumped) but the former are numbered and the latter are lettered. I have read that these are mining industry terms rather than geological ones.

I believe it was Gerard Case who wrote a mainstream article about fossil collecting in Morocco but I can't find it at the moment. I have been unable to find anything in English that provides an good overview of the stratigraphy of the Moroccan phosphates but there are a couple of articles say a little about certain beds (Gheerbrant et al., 1996; Gheerbrant et al, 2002). Perhaps Harry or others on this forum can provide more background on the geology or even the mining operations.

Gheerbrant, E., J. Sudre, and H. Cappetta. 1996.

A Palaeocene probiscidean from Morocco. Nature. Vol. 383. pp. 68-70 5 September.

Gheerbrant, E., J. Sudre, H. Cappetta, M. Iarochene, M. Amaghzaz, and B. Bouya. 2002.

A new large mammal from the Ypresian of Morocco: Evidence of surprising diversity of early probiscideans. Acta Palaontologica Polonica 47 (3): 493-506.

[non-remanié]

Sorry, I was using the term reworked rather informally. I do now recall that paper regarding the genesis of the STH bonebed and the 700-800k year depositional hiatus. Post-depositional transport is more like what I meant. Some of the teeth from STH look fairly pristine but many seem to show minor signs of transport or maybe its bioerosion. But I was wondering if perhaps the ferromanganese encrustations were perhaps preferentially found in the bottom of the bonebed or in areas where the teeth show the greatest signs of transport. Probably a tough question and it doesn't really matter. I think when I wrote that I also may have been thinking that STH was also a longer duration formation, not just the specific bone bed.

Steve,

From what I've read, the manganese encrustation, recently termed "ferromanganese," indicates perhaps 700,000-800,000 years of nondeposition (and likely winnowing) on the seafloor (Pyenson et al., 2009 - an article discussed in another thread last year). Some bones are in great shape and some Hexanchus teeth (the most fragile of the larger teeth) are complete but you can also find bones that are broken and appear to have been crudely planed. While some transport is in evidence (occasional land mammal remains have been found and have been interpreted as having been woodland-dwellers washed out to sea by a nearby river), no one has proposed that the vertebrate remains were reworked from another formation. I have read in the older papers that the few invertebrate molds (no shell preserved) that are found may have been reworked but I think they have been merely the lucky souvenirs of a mollusk fauna under conditions that did not favor preservation of shells (perhaps acids from the river aided in the destruction of most of the mollusks prior to fossilization or it was an area not well populated by them for some reason in the first place?).

Jess

[non-remanié]

is it possibly a diagenetically altered river tooth? it seems like those river environments are responsible for many of the striking colorations we see. but i also believe the pdf i linked refers to enough disparate depositional environments to possibly explain such dramatic differences in coloration/mineralization as well.

The black-black tooth I have is in really nice shape - as well preserved as the others I have. I know that doesn't preclude it from being reworked but the serrations show no wear.

[siteseer]

This is a pinned thread, Jess . . . don't think of it as a zombie thread. I learned quite a bit from this thread, and I'm glad to see your input.

All of these subtle differences in lamniform teeth cry out for images! At least let us see the Cretalamna schoutedeni you mentioned. Comparison (side-by-side) images are always instructive, too.

Harry,

Here are the two teeth I received with the label Cretalamna schoutedeni:

Late Paleocene (Thanetian)

Couche 2a

Khouribga, Morocco

Edited June 22, 2010 by siteseer

[siteseer]

Harry,

Here are the two teeth I received with the label Cretalamna schoutedeni:

Late Paleocene (Thanetian)

Couche 2a

Khouribga, Morocco

Steve,

The first tooth has a different shape but the second one looks like it could be a lower from the Cretaceous. What do you think?

[non-remanié]

Could it be that the furrows, seams or "sillon" might be the main beds mined for phosphate? Processing would likely be easiest from these soft phosphatic sands of which all the "sillon" are referred. So perhaps those are the most productive phosphate beds which they trace laterally in excavations, creating furrows as they move along? The numbered layers or "couche" also are phosphatic sands, so maybe they are also mined, yet they have a different composition and a different label scheme? Now that I think about it I think I have heard old-timers refer to the hills at PCS as furrows. And the Pungo River fm. mined at Aurora seems very similar to the Moroccan sequences: interbedded phosphatic sands, phosphatic limestones, marls, dolostones, limestones, etc.

Here, I found a book that refers to the "sillon" as horizons and "couche" as beds, which we already had pinned.

Phosphate Deposits of the World: Volume 2, Phosphate Rock Resources 2005

Notholt A. J. G. (Editor), Sheldon R. P. (Editor), Davidson D. F. (Editor)

-steve

Steve,

The word "couche" directly translates to "bed" in English both in the geological sense and for home furniture. "Sillon" doesn't translate as well. I would go with "seam" more than "furrow" for that. I don't understand the difference in terminology between "couches" and "sillons" at the site called "Recette IV" (which I read as "mine landing #4" where the phosphate ore is dumped) but the former are numbered and the latter are lettered. I have read that these are mining industry terms rather than geological ones.

I believe it was Gerard Case who wrote a mainstream article about fossil collecting in Morocco but I can't find it at the moment. I have been unable to find anything in English that provides an good overview of the stratigraphy of the Moroccan phosphates but there are a couple of articles say a little about certain beds (Gheerbrant et al., 1996; Gheerbrant et al, 2002). Perhaps Harry or others on this forum can provide more background on the geology or even the mining operations.

Gheerbrant, E., J. Sudre, and H. Cappetta. 1996.

A Palaeocene probiscidean from Morocco. Nature. Vol. 383. pp. 68-70 5 September.

Gheerbrant, E., J. Sudre, H. Cappetta, M. Iarochene, M. Amaghzaz, and B. Bouya. 2002.

A new large mammal from the Ypresian of Morocco: Evidence of surprising diversity of early probiscideans. Acta Palaontologica Polonica 47 (3): 493-506.

Edited June 22, 2010 by toothpuller

[siteseer]

Could it be that the furrows, seams or "sillon" might be the main beds mined for phosphate? Processing would likely be easiest from these soft phosphatic sands of which all the "sillon" are referred. So perhaps those are the most productive phosphate beds which they trace laterally in excavations, creating furrows as they move along? The numbered layers or "couche" also are phosphatic sands, so maybe they are also mined, yet they have a different composition and a different label scheme? Now that I think about it I think I have heard old-timers refer to the hills at PCS as furrows. And the Pungo River fm. mined at Aurora seems very similar to the Moroccan sequences: interbedded phosphatic sands, phosphatic limestones, marls, dolostones, limestones, etc.

Here, I found a book that refers to the "sillon" as horizons and "couche" as beds, which we already had pinned.

Phosphate Deposits of the World: Volume 2, Phosphate Rock Resources 2005

Notholt A. J. G. (Editor), Sheldon R. P. (Editor), Davidson D. F. (Editor)

-steve

Steve,

Yeah, I guess it was a more direct translation than I allowed. Of course, a familiarity with the English terms would be important for a decent translation. I did a translation of Cappetta's 1984 description of Gymnura delpiti, the earliest known species of butterfly ray from the Late Paleocene of Morocco. It included notes on the dentition of a modern species and a review of the geology of the site. My word choice might look a little more sloppy now.

That phosphate deposits book is probably worth having for anyone with fossils from phosphate mines.

[non-remanié]

I agree completely. I have Darteville & Casier 1943 from which it looks like Lamna schoutedeni was established, but I wish I could read the french text with the description From the plates, the left specimen sure looks like a good match with the wide enamel shoulders and reduced cusplets, but the right seems questionable.

I also noticed that something seems awry with your label, unless it is meant to be Sillon A2 rather than Couche IIa? Couche II is supposed to be within the Maastrichtian, possibly the last or second to last phosphate bed completely within it. I can't remember where, but I am sure I read that Sillon X is supposedly a very useful traceable marker bed for the end Maastrichtian phosphorite sequence. Either way, if Sillon X is the last Maastrichtian bed or spans the K/P transition, Couche II should still be completely within the Maastrichtian. All the stratigraphic charts, including Cappetta's do seem to have Sillon X as the end Maastrichtian bed as well.

-steve

Steve,

The first tooth has a different shape but the second one looks like it could be a lower from the Cretaceous. What do you think?

[non-remanié]

Jess,

I didn't quite understand the "sillon" usage so it was a good exercise to clear that up. The phosphate deposits book does look tremendously informative, but unfortunately I doubt most collectors are concerned with this type of information. I just wish the google books preview had the rest of the Morocco pages, it has most, but what a tease!

-steve

Steve,

Yeah, I guess it was a more direct translation than I allowed. Of course, a familiarity with the English terms would be important for a decent translation. I did a translation of Cappetta's 1984 description of Gymnura delpiti, the earliest known species of butterfly ray from the Late Paleocene of Morocco. It included notes on the dentition of a modern species and a review of the geology of the site. My word choice might look a little more sloppy now.

That phosphate deposits book is probably worth having for anyone with fossils from phosphate mines.

[non-remanié]

It looks like there is another layer naming scheme in use (compared to your cappetta chart and the phosphate book) that probably accounts for the discrepancy, so just be careful I guess. Gheerbrant et al seem to use this scheme consistently.

Dans la terminologie minière, les niveaux de phospha-

tes meubles exploités sont appelés « Couches » ou « Sil-

lons » et sont numérotés selon leur succession (fig. 2) :

Couche III : Maastrichtien ; Couche II : Paléocène ; Cou-

ches I et 0, Sillons A et B : Yprésien. Ils sont séparés par

des bancs généralement indurés de calcaire phosphaté plus

ou moins importants et plus ou moins réguliers appelés

« intercalaires » : Intercalaire Couches II/I, Intercalaire

Couches III/II, etc..

I agree completely. I have Darteville & Casier 1943 from which it looks like Lamna schoutedeni was established, but I wish I could read the french text with the description From the plates, the left specimen sure looks like a good match with the wide enamel shoulders and reduced cusplets, but the right seems questionable.

I also noticed that something seems awry with your label, unless it is meant to be Sillon A2 rather than Couche IIa? Couche II is supposed to be within the Maastrichtian, possibly the last or second to last phosphate bed completely within it. I can't remember where, but I am sure I read that Sillon X is supposedly a very useful traceable marker bed for the end Maastrichtian phosphorite sequence. Either way, if Sillon X is the last Maastrichtian bed or spans the K/P transition, Couche II should still be completely within the Maastrichtian. All the stratigraphic charts, including Cappetta's do seem to have Sillon X as the end Maastrichtian bed as well.

-steve

Edited June 22, 2010 by toothpuller

[Coco]

Hi,

De Dans la terminologie minière ' date=' les niveaux de phospha-

tes meubles exploités SONT appelés « Couches » OU « Sil-

Lons » et numérotés SONT SELON Leur succession ( fig. 2) :

Couche III : Maastrichtien ; Couche II : Paléocène ; Cou -

Ches I et 0, Sillons A et B : Yprésien . ILS SONT Séparés par

des bancs de calcaire généralement indurés phosphate plus

Moins OU Important et plus Réguliers Moins OU appelés

« intercalaires » : Couches Intercalaire II / I, Intercalaire

Couches III / II , etc .

[/Quote']

I don't know what is "sillon" in geology...

Here is the traditional definition of a "sillon" (here it is the field which was ploughed by a farmer)

We also listened to the music on the old vinyls records thanks to their "sillons".

In wich paper is this text from please ? Perhaps I have it and I could see to better understand and try to tell you what is it ?

Best regards

Coco