Where To Collect Cambrian Fossils

[MarcusFossils]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if there were any well know cambrian burgess-shale-like fossils collecting localities that aren't protected by any laws (i.e. Burgess shale has video cameras etc.) or that aren't simply too remote to be accessed easily (i.e. Sirius Passet is in northern greenland).

Thanks for everyone thoughts and opinions!

Edited July 6, 2014 by MarcusFossils

[Wrangellian]

Burgess-type beds have a way of turning up in parks, or getting declared off-limits somehow or other. Otherwise, if there are any that aren't, I doubt you'll get anyone to cough up the information!

From what I can see, the closest thing you might ever get access to is the pay-dig sites in Utah.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Wrangellian

[FossilDAWG]

Burgess shale correlatives are exposed at an old quarry near Metaline Falls, north of Spokane, Washington State. The strata are more or less metamorphized and distorted by tectonic forces. Burgess shale/Mt Stephen type trilobites can be found, but preservation is poor compared to the BC specimens. None of the soft-bodied fauna is present.

Don

[Brewcuse]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if there were any well know cambrian burgess-shale-like fossils collecting localities that aren't protected by any laws

This is from the NY State Geological Survey website. It may not be exactly what you're looking for, but since the topic is "Cambrian," I thought it may be relevant to some members. Ironically, I had been doing genealogical research this summer and all my paternal grandfather's family is from this area.

"Altona Formation: The Oldest Sedimentary Rocks in the Adirondack Mountains Region

The well sorted, coarse sandstones of the upper Potsdam (Keesville Member) have upper Middle to lower Upper Cambrian trilobites (ca. 495--492 million tears ago [m.y.], and are well dated. However, an older feldspathic-rich sandstone (Ausable Member) forms the lower part of the Potsdam in parts of the Lake Champlain valley and thickens (to 1,700 feet) to the northeast borderland of the Adirondacks and into southern Quebec...

...The oldest rocks of the Altona have late Early Cambrian trilobites (Olenellus) along the Old Military Turnpike west of Plattsburgh, and the youngest rocks produce middle Middle Cambrian trilobites (Ehmaniella) in low outcrops along West Chazy River just west of Atwood Road. These youngest rocks include red shales and thick dolostones and look nothing like anything in the Potsdam. An estimated age for the Ausable Formation would be 510--495 m.y.

[siteseer]

Yes, that is what I was going to say. Once collectors became informed about Burgess Shale and Chenjiang material, some of them started recognizing similar forms in the Wheeler Shale and elsewhere in the Utah Cambrian.. Outside of doing research for areas to prospect, I would try one of those pay-to-dig quarries. it's rare stuff but people are finding it.

From what I can see, the closest thing you might ever get access to is the pay-dig sites in Utah.

[Brewcuse]

Just ran across this link on twitter:

Hunt the Burgess Shale in BC http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Kootenay+guided+tour+allows+hunt+Burgess+Shale+fossils/10043005/story.html?__federated=1

[Auspex]

Just ran across this link on twitter:

Hunt the Burgess Shale in BC http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Kootenay+guided+tour+allows+hunt+Burgess+Shale+fossils/10043005/story.html?__federated=1

What an adventure that is! If I could, I'd do it in a heartbeat!

[Wrangellian]

Just ran across this link on twitter:

Hunt the Burgess Shale in BC http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/Kootenay+guided+tour+allows+hunt+Burgess+Shale+fossils/10043005/story.html?__federated=1

“Keep in mind how lucky we are that we can actually hold them in our hands.” Ugh

..lf the point is to keep some, don't go on the park tours. Been there, done that, but there the fossils that aren't destined for museums are destined to disintegrate. I'd love to try the U-dig site in Utah. There are a few Burgess-type things other than trilos that are found there - I have a chancelloriid from there (bought).

[Wrangellian]

Burgess shale correlatives are exposed at an old quarry near Metaline Falls, north of Spokane, Washington State. The strata are more or less metamorphized and distorted by tectonic forces. Burgess shale/Mt Stephen type trilobites can be found, but preservation is poor compared to the BC specimens. None of the soft-bodied fauna is present.

Don

Is this quarry open to collecting?

I have one small trilo specimen from there, though it has been a little overly-attacked by saws and chisels, but it's the only one I've seen available. Maybe someday I'll visit the site if possible.

[Auspex]

Where there is no other way to experience the protected sites, I can do 'catch-and-release', and consider it a privilege

[Wrangellian]

I did, in 1990, but all it did for me was instill grief for all those fossils that are left there to disintegrate for no good reason. But I do recommend the trip for anyone who can look past that! (and if you can, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din). The hike from Takakkaw Falls camp to the Walcott Quarry was quite a lot of effort, and long, for just 2hrs at the site - you have to consider that too. I don't know how the new Stanley hike compares.

[Auspex]

I have to look at it this way:

These fossils are going to do what they are going to do, no matter what I do or say, so to at least have the opportunity to experience them "in the wild" is all bonus. Kinda' how I feel about wildlife in general

[fossilcrazy]

I did, in 1990, but all it did for me was instill grief for all those fossils that are left there to disintegrate for no good reason. But I do recommend the trip for anyone who can look past that! (and if you can, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din). The hike from Takakkaw Falls camp to the Walcott Quarry was quite a lot of effort, and long, for just 2hrs at the site - you have to consider that too. I don't know how the new Stanley hike compares.

I agree Wrangellian, the hike is rigorous and it is unfortunate all the hikers seeking Cambrian fossils will have to go home empty handed. If anyone takes the hike, make sure you have a good camera. Digital pictures and the experience is all you will have for your efforts. I can understand the frustration of seeing beautiful fossils lying on the talus slopes and there they must stay. I don't claim to know the rhyme or reason why Parks Canada allows zero fossils to leave the park; but I imagine that as a UNESCO World Heritage Site, no one person should gain from what belongs to the world.

I have to admit finding the fossils is a pleasure in of itself. I'm including some pictures of the Royal Ontario Museum 1997 Expedition and myself at Walcott's Quarry.

Picture taken by Rhonda the Park Warden of the 1997 ROM Research team standing on the fault wedge on the southern end of Walcott's Quarry.

Me sitting at the Phyllopod bed in Walcott's Quarry 1997. Yes, this is my Avatar picture.

[Wrangellian]

Thanks for the pics, John. I have some too but I think we took nothing but slide photos - if we took any prints I can't find them!

I would not have taken the hike if I didn't think it would be a great experience, and it was. At least I now have bragging rights...

I imagine it's just a case of park officials thinking like you, Chas, that fossils are like wildlife. They are not - they don't reproduce!

I think Park authorities/workers all come from that outdoorsy wildlife-loving angle rather than a fossil-collecting/museum angle, so they apply that thinking to everything that exists in the park. Park officials no doubt are simply taking their orders from higher up that "nothing should ever leave the park" to the letter, only making exceptions for the museum/scientific teams probably after a lot of lobbying from them... I guess I can't expect non-fossil nuts to understand the shame in forcing those fossils to be left up there to disintegrate. I can think of any number of better uses for them than that: Allowing tour participants to take one or two home (in exchange for money or not), selling them at the visitor centre in Field to make a little extra cash for park maintenance or whatever (this is what came to our minds the day we were up there), or distributing them to schools and colleges to inspire the next generation of paleontologists! In any case, humanity will be better served and the fossils will last longer. My concern is not who owns them but how long they will last up there on the scree slope vs in someone's collection -anyone's- public or private, I don't care.

Otherwise how many people can ever see a Burgess fossil in person if they don't live near one of the museums that have them or near the site itself or are too infirm to do the hike? I'm not advocating commercial digging, I'm just talking about those that are dug up and left there anyway as a result of the ROM digging, which I can attest were many. -Not that Burgess fossils are common, these are Rare Rare Rare, precious resources which in my opinion are being mismanaged. Of course all the best ones are being taken and preserved in museums - the museum teams have to be selective either because of the park restrictions or manpower limitations, but in any case even the lesser 'rejects' are rare enough the world over that they should not be treated like any common Cretaceous clam or coalfield fern stem. The original post was about Cambrian fossils that can be collected. Where in the world do these exist? Maybe Utah but not in the same quality as Burgess. Chengjiang fossils can be had more easily but I understand that deposit is played out, or close to it, and anyway it's half a world away and probably also restricted(?) Also they are 15 m.y. older, making the Burgess fossils unique in a way.

I realize my whining will likely only fall on deaf ears if ever heard/read by those who pull the strings at all, but it does me good to get it off my chest!

[Wrangellian]

Wow, another book-length gripe... I can't help it. Looks a lot shorter in the composition box!

[Auspex]

If they were allowed to be dug out and removed, the site would be depleted much more quickly that through natural weathering. As it is, they are defacto contraband, and have no practical mass marketability, which is a strong factor in preserving the site for many generations to come. The whole good of their existence does not reside completely in their collectability.

[siteseer]

Chas.,

I think if the specimens were already dug out, then they need to be preserved. I don't understand designating the site as a national landmark bearing rare treasures but then saying some of the treasures are not valuable to science and should be left out in the rain. I'm sure other Canadian museums would gladly accept any specimens considered of second or third-rate quality.

Water is an insidious invader of rock sometimes rotting a fossil from the inside out. Many subsurface fossils today may not be there when we decide to dig for them in the future.

Jess

If they were allowed to be dug out and removed, the site would be depleted much more quickly that through natural weathering. As it is, they are defacto contraband, and have no practical mass marketability, which is a strong factor in preserving the site for many generations to come. The whole good of their existence does not reside completely in their collectability.

[Auspex]

Rescuing weathered-out specimens without 'hastening the weathering' would work if there there were folks willing to do this, and oversight to prevent abuse of the site.

<cough cough Swatara Gap cough cough>

[FossilDAWG]

I agree it's frustrating to think of (or see) such specimens left to the elements to eventually be destroyed. However, you should consider how long the site would last, and what condition it would be left in, if collecting were allowed. Also, as Auspex noted, the existence of a legal source of these specimens would create an irresistible attraction to those who would abuse the resource. How successful have we been at protecting elephants and rhinos, even within national parks, given the market (even the illegal market) for ivory and rhino horn?

How many people make the hike to the Burgess Shale quarry every year? How many would make the trip if there were no fossils to actually be seen there, or if there was only a museum exhibit like you could see at the ROM?

I suppose the park could generate some revenue by selling some specimens from the talus. However in that case the market value would be greater than the majority of us could hope to afford anyway. Plus that opens an interesting can of worms: if one can justify selling fossils from a national park (a commodity with a relatively tiny market), why not sell logging rights? Trees will at least grow back, eventually. Or sell any other marketable resource? You can still see the bighorn sheep, you just have to look in between the oil derricks.

I'm actually more concerned about some parks, such as Strathcona on Vancouver Island, that don't even allow researchers to collect specimens of undescribed species. In that case the loss is to science, not just to our somewhat selfish desire as collectors to own a specimen.

Don

[Wrangellian]

If I wasn't clear before, I am only talking about the fossils that are already dug out and left in the talus. I don't see how removing some of this material would expose the beds to more weathering - the beds themselves are already exposed, the talus does not cover the fossil beds, as far as I know, it just slides down the slope below, grinding those fossils steadily to dust. And anyway the pieces without fossils I think outnumbered the pieces with, so it's not like a while mountainside would disappear. I admit that part of the fun was picking thru that talus and seeing what I could find, but that was tempered by my horror that these would have to be left there. In retrospect perhaps I could have learned more by paying more attention when the diggers were talking, instead... If the dig teams are working every year, then the cast-off fossils will always be replenished, so I think there would always be at least a few for tourists to look at at any given time.

I wouldn't care if I never got a specimen for my collection (I already have a couple from an old rockhound collection and one I found at a rock show), nor whether they are sold and for how much, or distributed freely to schools. As long as they ended up somewhere other than that talus slope!

And I don't buy the (ahem) slippery slope argument, they can make an exception for this as they have already made an exception to the "nothing shall ever be taken from the park" rule for the research teams to be able to dig, and if they are concerned about a blight on the landscape, there is already a noticeable blight visible from down below at Emerald Lake. It couldn't be made any worse if small amounts of that talus were to be removed.

If they have cameras up there, then the job of protecting the site would be no different except that they would just have to make sure no one digs into the bedrock. I'm not saying they should get rid of the cameras and stop regulating it. And is the site not still busy with diggers and tour guides in the summer months? In that regard things will not change, I think it would still be very difficult to abuse it. I wonder if there wouldn't actually be less incentive to poach if there were fossils legally available.. Why risk breaking the law when you can get what you want legally?

I agree that the Strathcona thing is a travesty too. Don't they know fossils are being taken from a National Park and a UNESCO site up in Yoho? All I can figure is the authorities are not considering the fossils, they are only considering their orders from on high that the park should be preserved exactly as is and nothing else matters. (And then they probably build trails and benches, washrooms, etc.. Go figure) Speaking of that, isn't Emerald Lake Lodge an unnatural addition to Yoho park, and does it not make money? I don't know, maybe it was built before the park was founded.. I'll have to look into that.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Wrangellian

[Auspex]

I wonder what the lifespan of an unexposed fossil in the talus slope is? How quickly does this shale break down? Fossils within the fallen blocks, covered with other fallen blocks, should still survive for quite a while, IMHO.

I agree that naturally fully-exposed specimens could be put to better use, but once the hammers are unleashed, there is no chance that they will not be put to 'greater-than-desirable' use.

[Wrangellian]

Not sure what you mean there, Chas. The hammers have already been unleashed.

[Auspex]

Not sure what you mean there, Chas. The hammers have already been unleashed.

To the public, I mean. That the research groups are leaving fossils behind speaks volumes about the practicality of any 'salvage' plans... To me, the most valid reason to 'leave no fossil behind' is scientific research, and apparently they don't want 'em all?

[Wrangellian]

Maybe they just don't have the manpower (=money), and they would take more if they could. Maybe the parks people have told them to be as picky as possible because "we shouldn't be letting anything leave this park at all". I don't know what the case is, I never thought to ask them at the time, but I imagine it's one of these.

Maybe they aren't needed for science, but still, wouldn't some of those 'rejects' be more useful in schools and even private collections than to be consigned to oblivion up there on the slope?

I guess it would be better than nothing if they allowed these fossils to be taken at a later date, say when the quarry was exhausted and they wanted to fill it in with the debris, allow any survivors to be taken during that process - but wouldn't it be better to allow them to be taken out as soon as they are exposed, before they are weathered and abraded? Perhaps the ones that are now buried are a lost cause, but not the ones that have yet to be dug up.

And I'm not saying the public should ever be allowed to bring hammers up there.. just to be able to take a specimen or two that has already been dug out and flung on the pile... or that they should be distributed to schools etc.

[Auspex]

I strongly suspect it is a money and manpower issue, both for salvaging and for policing under relaxed rules.

Not really sure how it's actually better (for the public) that they disappear into a private collection, though. And once some come to market 'legitimately' (which they certainly would), then a black market trade has a screen from behind which to operate. I cite the Argentine fossil pine cone market; do you really think that all the ones for sale are pre-ban? How 'bout Chilean shark's teeth? The slope gets slipperier than snake snot when there is money to be made.

It does pain me that these remarkable fossils are 'going to waste', but the risk for loss of the the site and its treasures is great, unless they take extraordinary and unaffordable measures to regulate the takings.