Does Tennessee Hate Geologists/paleontologists?

[FossilDAWG]

Eastern Tennessee has some classic geological sites. One in particular, as series of road cuts near Thorn Hill, has long been recognized as critical to understanding the Ordovician history of the southern Appalachian area. Many papers, theses and dissertations deal with this series of outcrops, and some excellent field guides were published back in the 90s and earlier.

I have a trip coming up that would take me not far from that area, so I went on line to use Google Earth to check the status of the outcrops. This is what I found:

There are several cuts and they all look the same. The whole section is now unavailable for research, collecting, or education.

Elsewhere, Herb mentioned some Tennessee roadcuts in Silurian formations that were once very productive, but recently have been covered in riprap. I saw many such roadcuts last fall when I traveled with MikeR to Coon Creek. Also, the department of mines has ordered all quarries in Tennessee to bar access to anyone who doesn't work for the quarry. Even University classes, that have long had field trips to quarries, have been barred.

So what is up with Tennessee? Why does there seem to be a policy of covering up or blocking access to each and every outcrop? Why do they want to prevent the public from seeing any exposed rock, or from picking up a fossil? One might say it has to do with "public safety", but many of the road cuts I saw covered in riprap were too small to present any danger of rock slides onto the road, and indeed the riprap seems more likely to roll onto the road than the now-covered Cretaceous clay ever did. Does anybody know why they are pursuing this policy?

Don

[Auspex]

Maybe it is a spasm of (misguided) public safety initiatives...I'd kinda' like to know the reasoning.

Any TN residents want to have a go at it? To what office in Tennessee would one address an inquiry? Maybe this one? LINK

[jpc]

Could the creationists be in charge of TN? "Don't go looking at rocks that are used as evidenceof an ancient planet and of evolution"

[Auspex]

Could the creationists be in charge of TN? "Don't go looking at rocks that are used as evidenceof an ancient planet and of evolution"

Nah...young-earthers find proof in those rocks to support their beliefs.

[jpc]

Nah...young-earthers find proof in those rocks to support their beliefs.

Hmmmm... good point.

[-Andy-]

Could the creationists be in charge of TN? "Don't go looking at rocks that are used as evidenceof an ancient planet and of evolution"

That's a fair possibility I guess. Atheists can't hold office there.

Tennessee, Article 9, Section 2

No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.

[RichW9090]

Interesting. It doesn't say "elected office", it just says "office". One could argue that this applies to professorships at the state's universities. Watch out, ETSU!

Edited July 25, 2014 by RichW9090

[jpevahouse]

My guess is safety and protection from law suits. Those limestone road cuts are always unstable, large rocks falling on the road frequently. There's all kinds of liability issues if someone is hurt or killed by falling rocks.

Around here construction sites have become fortified, surrounded by high chain link fence. It's less the company is concerned about someone finding old stuff than getting hurt and suing the company.

The growing industry of liability lawyers has a death grip on America and no plans to let go anytime soon.

Edited July 25, 2014 by jpevahouse

[sixgill pete]

Here in NC they have started to do the same in newer road cuts in the mountains. This started shortly after the rock fall on I-40 that closed it down near the Tn. / NC state line a few years ago. Possibly this is part of the reason? I also agree with jpevahouse about those liability lawyers. "Did you get drunk, slip and fall and skin your knee. Call 800-lets-sue, we will get them companies"

[jpc]

That's a fair possibility I guess. Atheists can't hold office there.

Tennessee, Article 9, Section 2

No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.

Essay Question... is this an unconstitutional constitution?

[Auspex]

Essay Question... is this an unconstitutional constitution?

I certainly would not fly as part of the U.S. constitution, but state's rights being what they are, it is probably legal.

[FossilDAWG]

I certainly would not fly as part of the U.S. constitution, but state's rights being what they are, it is probably legal.

State constitutions are bound by the federal constitution; individual states cannot directly contradict the federal constitution. In this case the article seems to be in direct violation of the first amendment. However, it might take someone with "standing", which is to say someone who has been directly impacted by the article, to challenge it in court. That person would have to be able to prove that they were fired (for example) specifically due to their atheist beliefs. I suspect that if the state wanted to get rid of someone they would not be so obtuse as to state that as the reason.

Don

[jpevahouse]

Living in Tennessee after high school I was denied work because of a lack of interest in religion. If not a church going Baptist you weren't going anywhere in business or anything else. The rural south is generally very religious and people who aren't religious will have a hard time assimilating into the culture. It's always been a fact of life in the south.

It's very different here in NJ where there is a much wider range of religious institutions. No one religious institution dominates, religious prejudice is much less common and certainly not institutionalize into law.

The US has many different religional cultural traditions. They don't always mix but at least we aren't trying to resolve our differences on the battlefield any more.

Edited July 25, 2014 by jpevahouse

[Al Dente]

There are several states that require elected officials to have religious beliefs in order to hold office. A list I found online includes Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas.

[FossilForKids]

As far as the wall goes I think it's more pro-safety than anti-collecting. I've seen nets, cables, even tenacious Ivy and at Capitola and other areas some type of concrete covering but I do not think the main objective is to stop collecting unless it is for safety reasons.

[FossilDAWG]

Well this thread has taken a direction I didn't quite expect, though perhaps I should have given the title I gave it, which was just a bit of whining/grousing and not intended to be taken too seriously. I did learn some things, such as the bit about state constitutions barring the non-religious from public office, which I'm sure violates the Federal Constitution. I agree about being allowed to decide for myself about the risk level I am comfortable with, but then again I jump out of airplanes for amusement.

I wonder if the reason behind all the rip-raping and wrapping roadcuts in steel mesh has more to do with using "safety" as a reason to direct money towards politically connected companies. There are states (Pennsylvania come to mind) where the highways seem to be permanently under "repair"; year after year the same stretches of road are being "worked on" yet the job never gets finished. Covering up every roadcut, embankment, or slope in mesh or rip-rap would certainly provide an almost inexhaustible revenue stream for somebody. Or, perhaps this was a "shovel-ready project" to spend stimulus money, in which case it would not be an ongoing project. I was hoping that maybe some Tennessee residents would have heard of some state policy or initiative, but so far no-body has mentioned anything.

On the other hand, perhaps we can "thank" the lawyers who have also worked so hard to keep us "safe" from diving boards in swimming pools, Jungle Gym setups in playgrounds, and so on.

I guess the message is to collect (safely) while you can, and not just assume that roadcut or quarry will be accessible forever.

Don

[John K]

A very nice exposure of Hell Creek material, exposed along the public right-of-way just over the bridge north of Forsythe (no secrets exposed now, anymore...) had the same thing happen. We had previously found Dino material, lots of turtle material, and even some croc verts along a huge exposure of gravel, nicely eroding out of the bank. It's since been tapered, covered and planted.

[Raggedy Man]

The quarry by my house used to allow collecting in the new cuts and tailings. The lawyers put a stop to it after some irresponsible kid hit his hand with a hammer and claimed it was a falling rock. The seven people there all said the same thing. He's lying...

In the end the liability is high and being sued for millions of dollars just isn't worth it.

[Herb]

As to the TN rip rap situation, there was a quarry across the road from the sites where the rip rap came from. My guess some local politico or family member owns the quarry and got the rip rap order as a political plum rather than a deliberate attempt to cover the fossils.

[Foram-Mike]

Dear US-colleagues,

the issue is also known from quarries in Germany. A solution here is that local paleontologists get in touch with the according quarry-owner. They organize certain collecting saturdays/sundays. People attending need to get enlisted, sign an imdemnification paper, bring beforehand a proof of insurance, bring a safety-hat. The local paleontologist may get a small financial compensation such as an entry fee or in most cases will be a well reputed member of the paleo-community. If we as microfossil-hunters find macro-fossils we will hand those to the nice colleague at the entrance adn report, what we have seen, found where in the quarry. Some quarry-owners even support local exhibitions on the finds. So think about adopting a quarry, road-cut ... .

[Herb]

Hi Michael, we were doing all of the above for the past few years, but the quarries in this areaa (OH,IN,KY) have pretty much shut us out. It is almost impossible to get into a quarry now.

[JimB88]

I (surprisingly) have had reactions both ways here considering fossiling. Ive had religious pamphlets thrown out of car windows at me while collecting and Ive had pastors enthusiastically allow me to collect on church property. As far as the state goes, they did recognize that the Gray fossil site was special and set it aside for research (and a museum.) They will allow collecting in quarries if you obtain a certificate for taking a mine safety coarse. Liability is the key factor in all of that.